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what's up everybody

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happy wednesday night

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it is hump night as opposed to hump day

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uh i'm so happy you guys are joining us

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and that you are here and we're gonna

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hang out together and we're gonna talk

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to a super smart dude

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who um could crush my intelligence any

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day of the week

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um and i'll bet on that

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i don't have much money but what i have

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i'll bet it so

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um happy to see everybody here and very

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nice to see you

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linda diesel girl

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um but

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hopefully i see your name right cherrell

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uh witness citizen always a pleasure

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linda thompson

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thank you so much for being here uh

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laura sosa i really do appreciate it

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so uh with that being said you know what

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the deal i'll play an intro i'll come

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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all right that is a sean special um i

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hope you like it hope you take um

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first person i'll bring in mr g

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christopher how are you doing sir

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i am doing absolutely great it's great

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to see you sean um and you know what

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like it is such an honor and a privilege

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and a pleasure that you've asked me to

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help co-host your shows once a week and

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i'm just really thrilled to be here this

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is incredible and you even have a new

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new intro i don't know how you throw

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that stuff together so fast it's it's

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incredible

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uh i don't really know what i'm doing i

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just it's just a process that's

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automatic at this point and

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it is my pleasure to have you on as a

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co-host every wednesday night because

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you are an amazing dude

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and i need amazing people around me

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um because that just makes me happy

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well we all do don't we

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i think the same we're in a mutual

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appreciation society right now it's

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awesome

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uh so without further ado do you want to

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introduce our next guest possibly

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oh sure um

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yeah we are we are bringing in that our

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next guest sure yeah i have um

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uh

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spoiler alert i've i've known dr sean

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ace bjorn hargens for

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only about a about a year and a half or

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so um

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we got to know each other when i was

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working for richard

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uh the

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um the ancient alien researcher

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and

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deep state cover-up researcher you know

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yeah um and um

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and uh what happened was i mean very

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very briefly that um that uh

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you know i was working on richard's site

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and doing a lot of community building

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over there and community management over

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there

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and some other stuff you know answering

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some of richard's emails things like

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that and

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along with my experiencer group

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co-founder kirsten blackburn

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and

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there are so many smart people over

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there that

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some of which

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many of which are still kind of around

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the general community and

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kind of

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shown like a big light was

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was uh sean ace bjorn harkins and

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he has

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done such incredible things in the past

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and now

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can you say his name can you say his

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name again

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sean ace bjorn hargens oh that's lovely

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okay right isn't it

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um

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and uh

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so

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i i'll let sean characterize himself

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but

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uh we actually asked him kristen and i

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asked sean to do

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one of the first

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member talks over in richard dolan

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members

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and he and he just absolutely

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blew everyone away with this

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five-hour long presentation on a 40-page

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paper that he wrote and it was it it was

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one of the

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last year actually like um

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uh

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cool

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co-hosting that and getting to know him

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and then after that um sean has been

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he'll talk about it a little bit here

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now but

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he has been

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kind of workshopping

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this

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through an online course that he was

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doing through the pandemic

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and now he's actually been able to get

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it

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science

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and

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which is kind of a big dang deal because

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we all know how much

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um

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it's a bdd because you know we all know

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how much the paranormal ufology and

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almost studies in general

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the phenomena how much that has been

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continually pushed aside in academia and

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sean has been doing incredibly admirable

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work in in trying to integrate that

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um integration in general is a big thing

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for him so so being able to integrate

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that into academia and trying to find a

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way that we can kind of move forward

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in academia with that and also bring

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some tools from academia and from

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different methodologies of different

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practices

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um

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from academia into ufology so that we

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can do a better job of like figuring out

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what the hell's going on does that make

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sense yeah it does make sense and so

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let's not take up any more time let's

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get in the best of the two seans that

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you'll be talking to and seeing today

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and it is this one

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hey guys

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good to see how are you yeah now it's

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double trouble two seans oh my gosh

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i hope i didn't completely

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mischaracterize you right there but uh

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it's uh it's it's great to see you here

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tonight

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i'm pretty pissed down there so i don't

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know

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well i was appreciating remembering that

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five hour marathon that first community

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engagement talk we did like yeah that

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was like an altered state in itself it

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was incredible

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right yeah i don't know that anybody

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took any bathroom breaks i don't know

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how we did that i don't know i

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yeah but it worked and it was pretty

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amazing was that on the ontological

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process for the the thing that was

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completely unknown to you that you

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somehow put together really well

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oh my gosh

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yeah

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just joking about that sean before um

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you came on we were we're like how do

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you make a classification system

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for like a whole range of beings that

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you can't touch or even see

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um but but that's kind of like what sean

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spjone hargens does yeah so

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yeah exactly

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so

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there is you have to talk to a lot of

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experiencers you know or look at the

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literature that represents you know you

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know thousands and thousands of

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experiencers and look for the meta

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patterns

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yeah that's amazing

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yeah um can you tell us about this new

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program that you've created at the

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california institute for human science

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yeah i'm really excited you know i've i

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was in academia for about 10 years you

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know right after i got my phd

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and i ran two masters programs dealing

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with interdisciplinary studies and

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interval theory and so i've always been

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a big picture kind of guy and a meta

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mind is you know my angle where i just

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love getting data from so many different

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disciplines and domains and and then

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trying to figure out you know how do

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they mash together and how can they help

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us you know just have a more complete

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view of reality you know not in any kind

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of fully explanatory way but you know

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honoring the mystery and the ever

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receding you know horizon of

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understanding but you know just doing

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our best to make sense of it all given

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you know what we know and what we're you

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know discovering from other people's

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encounters and explorations you know

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across disciplines

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and then i left that to go into business

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and do leadership consulting and

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coaching

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and then about a year ago

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this

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graduate school approached me and said

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you know hey we'd like to have you come

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and you know be part of our you know

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school

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and i basically said

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you know i love to do it you know i've

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i've missed academia and i've kind of

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been looking for a home a place to land

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but there's two things i'm passionate

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about right now in my life and i want to

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make sure i can do both of those at this

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place right so it was kind of you know

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my ultimatum was you know i'm interested

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but only if i can

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explore exo studies

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and if i can explore you know this other

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framework i developed um a meta-capital

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framework that has 10 different kinds of

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capital you know like financial capital

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social capital human capital

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psychological capital and so forth so

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that's kind of like my business side my

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integral business side

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and then the other piece that i'm

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passionate about is kind of an integral

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approach to ufos and anomalous

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experiences and realities

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and and they said yeah we're open to

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that so

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when i took the job last november

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i began you know going through the

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process of transforming a current

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program that was titled comparative

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religion and philosophy

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and you know this is a master's and phd

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program

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and i basically wanted to kind of you

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know upgrade it to kind of the 21st

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century and so we ended up calling it

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integral noetic sciences and integral

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noetic sciences is basically taking this

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integral or metadisciplinary approach um

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which i can say more about in a moment

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and looking at noetic science looking at

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the science of consciousness philosophy

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of science looking at meditation and and

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brain studies looking at you know kind

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of what's a

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science in a broadly construed sense um

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what i would call a broad empiricism so

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not a reductive or materialistic this is

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very much a

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post-materialist orientation to science

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um oh and i should mention that the

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school the california institute for

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human science is really well known for

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its research and work in subtle energies

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this is kind of one of the main things

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that puts them on the map because the

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founder of the institute

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00:11:58,790 --> 00:11:56,320
motoyama a japanese man actually

287
00:12:01,030 --> 00:11:58,800
invented devices to measure chakras and

288
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meridians and to measure the energies in

289
00:12:04,870 --> 00:12:02,079
the body

290
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so and of course this is really perfect

291
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:07,760
for me because in my experiences and in

292
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my study of anomalous phenomenon

293
00:12:14,550 --> 00:12:12,880
they all come back to subtle energies

294
00:12:18,150 --> 00:12:14,560
like subtle energies is kind of like a

295
00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:18,160
baseline for all weird experiences you

296
00:12:23,910 --> 00:12:20,880
know so so it's great to have that as

297
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kind of a strength in the institution

298
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and then you know this program in

299
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integral noetic sciences is basically

300
00:12:31,670 --> 00:12:29,839
looking at consciousness from a

301
00:12:34,470 --> 00:12:31,680
scientific perspective

302
00:12:37,269 --> 00:12:34,480
and so i've developed a concentration in

303
00:12:40,310 --> 00:12:37,279
that program in anomalous studies

304
00:12:43,030 --> 00:12:40,320
but there's also an option for students

305
00:12:45,430 --> 00:12:43,040
to do a self-designed concentration so

306
00:12:47,509 --> 00:12:45,440
they can identify a series of courses

307
00:12:49,829 --> 00:12:47,519
that they want to bring together and

308
00:12:52,550 --> 00:12:49,839
they can call it ufo studies weird

309
00:12:53,990 --> 00:12:52,560
studies you know any number of things

310
00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:54,000
right so they just have to go through an

311
00:12:58,710 --> 00:12:56,160
approval process working with me as the

312
00:13:00,870 --> 00:12:58,720
program director to identify which

313
00:13:03,030 --> 00:13:00,880
courses and what would be the title for

314
00:13:05,509 --> 00:13:03,040
that set of courses and then that can be

315
00:13:08,710 --> 00:13:05,519
a concentration that they get within

316
00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:08,720
their phd in integral noetic sciences

317
00:13:13,269 --> 00:13:11,040
but as a program design concentration we

318
00:13:15,110 --> 00:13:13,279
have anomalous studies and so anomalous

319
00:13:18,829 --> 00:13:15,120
studies you know it's basically a big

320
00:13:20,949 --> 00:13:18,839
tent you know it includes paranormal sci

321
00:13:24,550 --> 00:13:20,959
multi-dimensional experiences

322
00:13:26,629 --> 00:13:24,560
galactic esoteric even cryptological

323
00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:26,639
right so i was very happy that i got

324
00:13:30,949 --> 00:13:28,880
that word into the description because

325
00:13:33,509 --> 00:13:30,959
that really helps expand the weirdness

326
00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:33,519
right of what we're allowed to include

327
00:13:38,069 --> 00:13:34,880
and explore

328
00:13:40,629 --> 00:13:38,079
transpersonal ufo et slash extra

329
00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:40,639
dimensional encounters and psychedelic

330
00:13:44,949 --> 00:13:42,800
so basically just the full range of

331
00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:44,959
weird experiences that people have and

332
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:47,040
then bringing that in using mixed

333
00:13:52,870 --> 00:13:50,160
methods so qualitative and quantitative

334
00:13:55,350 --> 00:13:52,880
research methodologies and we also at

335
00:13:58,069 --> 00:13:55,360
the university have our own

336
00:13:59,269 --> 00:13:58,079
consciousness lab so we have a subtle

337
00:14:00,949 --> 00:13:59,279
energy lab

338
00:14:02,470 --> 00:14:00,959
with a number of devices that students

339
00:14:04,550 --> 00:14:02,480
use in their research

340
00:14:07,670 --> 00:14:04,560
we've just received a bunch of equipment

341
00:14:09,269 --> 00:14:07,680
from jeffrey martin that allows us to

342
00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:09,279
include consciousness so there's like an

343
00:14:14,150 --> 00:14:11,760
eeg machine and other similar types of

344
00:14:17,110 --> 00:14:14,160
devices so that students can actually do

345
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:17,120
research on brain states and states of

346
00:14:22,710 --> 00:14:19,680
consciousness in the context of their

347
00:14:25,030 --> 00:14:22,720
anomalous studies research and you know

348
00:14:27,509 --> 00:14:25,040
so we're really looking at what do these

349
00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:27,519
anomalous experiences and realities tell

350
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:30,880
us about the nature of reality and what

351
00:14:36,069 --> 00:14:33,600
are like the ontological philosophical

352
00:14:37,829 --> 00:14:36,079
scientific implications of this right so

353
00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:37,839
we're really trying to do you know kind

354
00:14:42,949 --> 00:14:40,160
of a deep dive into the experience of

355
00:14:46,389 --> 00:14:42,959
all of this but then also explore it

356
00:14:48,949 --> 00:14:46,399
from an expanded scientific framework um

357
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:48,959
to really help push science and religion

358
00:14:53,750 --> 00:14:50,800
you know to the next level of inquiry

359
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:53,760
and discussion around these topics

360
00:14:58,790 --> 00:14:56,000
do you feel that people are actually

361
00:14:59,750 --> 00:14:58,800
generally speaking having a lot more of

362
00:15:02,069 --> 00:14:59,760
these

363
00:15:04,230 --> 00:15:02,079
kind of subtle energy pushes that guide

364
00:15:07,030 --> 00:15:04,240
their life than they even know

365
00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:07,040
i do yeah and as i kind of came out of

366
00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:09,920
the ufo et closet and started sharing

367
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:12,720
more publicly my experiences and my

368
00:15:17,189 --> 00:15:14,800
thoughts on these topics i started

369
00:15:19,269 --> 00:15:17,199
having all kinds of people who i'd been

370
00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:19,279
friends with for quite a while start

371
00:15:23,269 --> 00:15:21,600
telling me their weird experiences and

372
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:23,279
what really stood out to me about this

373
00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:26,320
was these were good friends who i had

374
00:15:31,509 --> 00:15:28,720
discussed a lot of you know really deep

375
00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:31,519
personal experiences and vice versa

376
00:15:36,550 --> 00:15:34,000
about life and marriage and kids and

377
00:15:38,710 --> 00:15:36,560
work and meditative experiences

378
00:15:40,949 --> 00:15:38,720
but for some reason they never told me

379
00:15:44,230 --> 00:15:40,959
their exo experiences they never told me

380
00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:44,240
the really weird stuff and um but i as i

381
00:15:48,629 --> 00:15:46,399
came out and kind of put my neck out

382
00:15:50,790 --> 00:15:48,639
more and more people were saying hey

383
00:15:53,030 --> 00:15:50,800
i've had an experience kind of weird let

384
00:15:55,350 --> 00:15:53,040
me tell you about it and i just started

385
00:15:57,990 --> 00:15:55,360
to realize like holy smokes i'm

386
00:16:00,710 --> 00:15:58,000
surrounded by experiencers like almost

387
00:16:03,590 --> 00:16:00,720
like everyone is an experiencer

388
00:16:05,430 --> 00:16:03,600
and i just really was amazed that so

389
00:16:06,870 --> 00:16:05,440
many of us are having these experiences

390
00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:06,880
and for some people they've had one or

391
00:16:10,389 --> 00:16:08,880
two or three in their life

392
00:16:12,389 --> 00:16:10,399
for others it's kind of an ongoing

393
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:12,399
process or they have different phases in

394
00:16:15,110 --> 00:16:14,000
their life where a lot of this activity

395
00:16:16,629 --> 00:16:15,120
has occurred

396
00:16:18,629 --> 00:16:16,639
and and that's why i've been so

397
00:16:20,550 --> 00:16:18,639
supportive and excited by the work that

398
00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:20,560
jay and kristen and stuart have been

399
00:16:24,949 --> 00:16:22,560
doing with the experiencer group because

400
00:16:26,790 --> 00:16:24,959
we need more safe places for people to

401
00:16:28,949 --> 00:16:26,800
compare notes and just realize they're

402
00:16:31,590 --> 00:16:28,959
not alone and they're not crazy but yeah

403
00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:31,600
my my sense is that a lot more people

404
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:33,120
are having these experiences than we

405
00:16:36,389 --> 00:16:35,040
realize and in a sense even more than

406
00:16:37,990 --> 00:16:36,399
they realize

407
00:16:39,670 --> 00:16:38,000
yeah right

408
00:16:42,629 --> 00:16:39,680
no i

409
00:16:44,710 --> 00:16:42,639
you know it it it seems like

410
00:16:47,350 --> 00:16:44,720
almost like a fear thing so someone

411
00:16:49,269 --> 00:16:47,360
somebody knows that okay this person has

412
00:16:51,189 --> 00:16:49,279
had an experience and this person has

413
00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:51,199
two okay now it's okay for me to kind of

414
00:16:56,230 --> 00:16:54,000
reach out and it kind of goes towards

415
00:16:58,710 --> 00:16:56,240
you know the more exo it is

416
00:17:00,710 --> 00:16:58,720
the more they'll tell you about theirs

417
00:17:02,710 --> 00:17:00,720
yeah you know it's kind of like it like

418
00:17:04,309 --> 00:17:02,720
you said a safe space so yeah they

419
00:17:06,789 --> 00:17:04,319
experience their group is a is a great

420
00:17:09,029 --> 00:17:06,799
spot for that most definitely

421
00:17:11,110 --> 00:17:09,039
you know it's been interesting as i i

422
00:17:13,750 --> 00:17:11,120
haven't always like kind of

423
00:17:15,270 --> 00:17:13,760
self-identified as an experiencer

424
00:17:16,870 --> 00:17:15,280
but then in talking with people they're

425
00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:16,880
like well have you had any pre-cognitive

426
00:17:20,470 --> 00:17:19,360
experiences yeah have you ever seen a

427
00:17:22,549 --> 00:17:20,480
ghost

428
00:17:25,350 --> 00:17:22,559
yeah i did have a weird experience i was

429
00:17:26,789 --> 00:17:25,360
seeing a ghost oh have you ever had a

430
00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:26,799
experience of what you would consider a

431
00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:29,360
past life or a parallel life yeah a few

432
00:17:32,630 --> 00:17:31,200
times you know so like as people started

433
00:17:34,230 --> 00:17:32,640
asking me you know like what kinds of

434
00:17:36,310 --> 00:17:34,240
experiences am i it's like i'm ticking

435
00:17:37,990 --> 00:17:36,320
the boxes and then they're like dude

436
00:17:38,950 --> 00:17:38,000
you're an experiencer and i'm like

437
00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:38,960
really

438
00:17:44,470 --> 00:17:42,480
like okay you know so it's funny because

439
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:44,480
it's like we just sometimes don't even

440
00:17:48,789 --> 00:17:46,720
know how to relate to ourself and our

441
00:17:51,029 --> 00:17:48,799
own set of experiences we don't even

442
00:17:52,789 --> 00:17:51,039
know kind of what we give that but if

443
00:17:55,029 --> 00:17:52,799
someone kind of you know does an inquiry

444
00:17:57,590 --> 00:17:55,039
a socratic dialogue with you then it's

445
00:17:59,270 --> 00:17:57,600
like you realize wow like yeah i've had

446
00:18:02,390 --> 00:17:59,280
this full range of paranormal

447
00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:02,400
experiences since my 20s and so yeah i

448
00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:05,280
guess i am i'm an experiencer

449
00:18:10,070 --> 00:18:08,400
oh along those lines yeah um i i deeply

450
00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:10,080
appreciate that and i think that that's

451
00:18:14,950 --> 00:18:12,640
so relevant to the conversation that we

452
00:18:17,029 --> 00:18:14,960
need to think about like more than more

453
00:18:19,110 --> 00:18:17,039
multiple modalities and things like that

454
00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:19,120
right that's super important and i

455
00:18:24,549 --> 00:18:21,520
remember you talking at one point about

456
00:18:26,789 --> 00:18:24,559
how you had this kind of pivotal moment

457
00:18:29,750 --> 00:18:26,799
of clarity when you were reading a hunt

458
00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:29,760
for the skinwalker right yeah yeah and

459
00:18:32,310 --> 00:18:31,280
and could you talk about that a little

460
00:18:33,909 --> 00:18:32,320
bit because i just think that there's

461
00:18:35,990 --> 00:18:33,919
like a kind of a beautiful moment and

462
00:18:37,669 --> 00:18:36,000
super relevant these days yeah

463
00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:37,679
yeah so i'll just teed up by saying a

464
00:18:41,909 --> 00:18:39,760
little bit about my dissertation you

465
00:18:44,070 --> 00:18:41,919
know so i focused on what i call

466
00:18:46,549 --> 00:18:44,080
integral ecology because i've always

467
00:18:48,549 --> 00:18:46,559
been a big nature person you know i love

468
00:18:50,390 --> 00:18:48,559
the environment getting outdoors i've

469
00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:50,400
been an outdoor trip leader for a long

470
00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:53,360
time so my dissertation work was looking

471
00:18:56,630 --> 00:18:54,320
at

472
00:18:58,789 --> 00:18:56,640
all the different schools of ecology and

473
00:19:02,310 --> 00:18:58,799
schools of environmental thinking and i

474
00:19:04,630 --> 00:19:02,320
identified 200 and there's 80 different

475
00:19:06,630 --> 00:19:04,640
scientific schools of ecology

476
00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:06,640
right so it's like wow what's up with

477
00:19:10,070 --> 00:19:08,320
that i mean that's just crazy it's like

478
00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:10,080
that just shows like the the amount of

479
00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:12,320
differentiation and and each one of

480
00:19:17,750 --> 00:19:15,360
those schools thinks they have

481
00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:17,760
a you know sacred access to the truth

482
00:19:22,630 --> 00:19:20,720
right they and they don't know

483
00:19:24,150 --> 00:19:22,640
any of the others like there they might

484
00:19:25,750 --> 00:19:24,160
be able to name three or four other

485
00:19:27,510 --> 00:19:25,760
schools of ecology

486
00:19:30,789 --> 00:19:27,520
they have no idea that there's actually

487
00:19:33,029 --> 00:19:30,799
80 schools and each of those schools by

488
00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:33,039
and large have their own phd programs

489
00:19:37,990 --> 00:19:35,600
their own academic journals their own

490
00:19:40,150 --> 00:19:38,000
conferences right so this this is kind

491
00:19:42,150 --> 00:19:40,160
of the problem of academia it's like so

492
00:19:43,669 --> 00:19:42,160
hyper-specialized you know and

493
00:19:46,150 --> 00:19:43,679
everyone's kind of got their little

494
00:19:48,310 --> 00:19:46,160
kingdom right and no one's like kind of

495
00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:48,320
interrelating and connecting the dots

496
00:19:52,549 --> 00:19:50,400
and trying to kind of bring it together

497
00:19:54,789 --> 00:19:52,559
and then there's 120 different schools

498
00:19:57,350 --> 00:19:54,799
of environmental thinking i mean it's

499
00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:57,360
just you know it's out of control and so

500
00:20:00,950 --> 00:19:59,600
my dissertation was you know bringing

501
00:20:03,350 --> 00:20:00,960
all that together and trying to create

502
00:20:05,350 --> 00:20:03,360
an integral framework that allows us to

503
00:20:07,909 --> 00:20:05,360
benefit from the unique insights that

504
00:20:10,149 --> 00:20:07,919
each of those 200 approaches

505
00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:10,159
brings to the environmental topic you

506
00:20:15,909 --> 00:20:13,039
know kind of my thinking is you know

507
00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:15,919
the earth is burning we're in trouble we

508
00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:19,120
need as much help as we can get and if

509
00:20:22,630 --> 00:20:20,640
there's 200 different schools of

510
00:20:24,470 --> 00:20:22,640
environmental and ecological thinking

511
00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:24,480
each one of them probably has an

512
00:20:28,310 --> 00:20:26,240
important insight that we need to bring

513
00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:28,320
forward and combine with the other

514
00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:30,080
insights right so these pearls of wisdom

515
00:20:34,710 --> 00:20:31,760
yeah so this kind of just kind of

516
00:20:36,710 --> 00:20:34,720
represents my style of thinking and my

517
00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:36,720
approach to things i'm always kind of

518
00:20:40,390 --> 00:20:38,880
building meta models out of lots of

519
00:20:42,950 --> 00:20:40,400
different data sets

520
00:20:44,789 --> 00:20:42,960
and so i'm reading up for skinwalker and

521
00:20:45,990 --> 00:20:44,799
loving it i'm just like wow this is like

522
00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:46,000
trippy

523
00:20:50,230 --> 00:20:48,400
and there's a quote in there and i use

524
00:20:52,870 --> 00:20:50,240
it actually at the beginning of my

525
00:20:55,029 --> 00:20:52,880
article our wild cosmos

526
00:20:57,669 --> 00:20:55,039
that along with a quote from john mack

527
00:20:59,270 --> 00:20:57,679
and basically the quote is saying you

528
00:21:01,350 --> 00:20:59,280
know like look you know they're the

529
00:21:03,990 --> 00:21:01,360
ghost hunters you know don't want to

530
00:21:05,750 --> 00:21:04,000
talk to the bigfoot people the

531
00:21:07,270 --> 00:21:05,760
nuts the the

532
00:21:09,350 --> 00:21:07,280
you know bigfoots and eight people don't

533
00:21:11,990 --> 00:21:09,360
want to talk to the bigfoots and et

534
00:21:14,549 --> 00:21:12,000
people right you know and you know the

535
00:21:16,950 --> 00:21:14,559
the ufo folks are divided between the

536
00:21:19,029 --> 00:21:16,960
consciousness ascension you know branch

537
00:21:21,270 --> 00:21:19,039
and the you know that symbol and so and

538
00:21:23,590 --> 00:21:21,280
basically you know there's this call of

539
00:21:25,029 --> 00:21:23,600
like we we need an anthropologist that

540
00:21:26,870 --> 00:21:25,039
can kind of study all these different

541
00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:26,880
groups and bring it together

542
00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:28,720
and when i read that i was like oh my

543
00:21:33,510 --> 00:21:31,360
god i'm that person you know like that's

544
00:21:35,110 --> 00:21:33,520
me like they're talking about me right

545
00:21:37,110 --> 00:21:35,120
like that's what i'm good at that's what

546
00:21:39,029 --> 00:21:37,120
i'm passionate about and i'm so

547
00:21:40,310 --> 00:21:39,039
interested in all of those different

548
00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:40,320
approaches

549
00:21:45,110 --> 00:21:42,960
and and so i just thought wow i need to

550
00:21:47,750 --> 00:21:45,120
do that and that was the moment that exo

551
00:21:49,669 --> 00:21:47,760
studies was born and so i immediately

552
00:21:51,750 --> 00:21:49,679
started kind of thinking about what

553
00:21:54,789 --> 00:21:51,760
would it look like for me to develop

554
00:21:56,470 --> 00:21:54,799
a meta-integrative framework to start to

555
00:21:59,590 --> 00:21:56,480
understand the complexity and the

556
00:22:01,990 --> 00:21:59,600
variety of anomalous experiences and you

557
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:02,000
know and so i started working on that

558
00:22:05,590 --> 00:22:03,280
and then i had a conversation with

559
00:22:08,149 --> 00:22:05,600
stuart davis a mutual friend of jay and

560
00:22:10,070 --> 00:22:08,159
i and you know stuart had just been

561
00:22:13,669 --> 00:22:10,080
coming out with his mantis being

562
00:22:16,070 --> 00:22:13,679
experiences and sharing those and and he

563
00:22:18,549 --> 00:22:16,080
really inspired me to just go for it so

564
00:22:21,590 --> 00:22:18,559
i launched in exo studies you know like

565
00:22:24,310 --> 00:22:21,600
what started out as a three-month class

566
00:22:26,070 --> 00:22:24,320
and i identify like 15 topics

567
00:22:28,870 --> 00:22:26,080
we worked through that people were so

568
00:22:31,590 --> 00:22:28,880
engaged i added like a bonus two-month

569
00:22:33,350 --> 00:22:31,600
class to cover another 10 topics

570
00:22:36,070 --> 00:22:33,360
i realized there still was so much more

571
00:22:38,789 --> 00:22:36,080
to do i then created a one-year program

572
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:38,799
with 42 distinct topics with a

573
00:22:44,230 --> 00:22:42,159
bibliography of 650 books and then we

574
00:22:46,950 --> 00:22:44,240
spent the whole year and this was what

575
00:22:49,110 --> 00:22:46,960
jay was part of working through those 42

576
00:22:52,390 --> 00:22:49,120
topics and and i summarized three or

577
00:22:54,390 --> 00:22:52,400
four books sometimes more each week

578
00:22:56,230 --> 00:22:54,400
to kind of set up you know some of the

579
00:22:58,870 --> 00:22:56,240
key points or considerations for each of

580
00:23:00,390 --> 00:22:58,880
those topics and they run the gamut of

581
00:23:02,470 --> 00:23:00,400
you know multi-dimensional awareness

582
00:23:05,270 --> 00:23:02,480
social and cultural dynamics to

583
00:23:07,029 --> 00:23:05,280
science and quantum physics and so forth

584
00:23:08,870 --> 00:23:07,039
and we we had a great time it was

585
00:23:11,190 --> 00:23:08,880
amazing and it's still going we're still

586
00:23:13,510 --> 00:23:11,200
kind of meeting weekly and i'm about to

587
00:23:16,310 --> 00:23:13,520
launch a new course focused on subtle

588
00:23:17,990 --> 00:23:16,320
energies and subtle senses and how do we

589
00:23:21,350 --> 00:23:18,000
cultivate our multi-dimensional

590
00:23:23,270 --> 00:23:21,360
awareness so we can be in conscious

591
00:23:26,390 --> 00:23:23,280
contact with

592
00:23:28,549 --> 00:23:26,400
the many forms of intelligence that

593
00:23:29,669 --> 00:23:28,559
surround us in the invisible realms if

594
00:23:31,270 --> 00:23:29,679
you will

595
00:23:33,270 --> 00:23:31,280
this is kind of a selfish question but

596
00:23:34,630 --> 00:23:33,280
let me let me ask you this i've i've

597
00:23:37,029 --> 00:23:34,640
noticed that

598
00:23:39,830 --> 00:23:37,039
my experiences or

599
00:23:43,269 --> 00:23:39,840
the the ones that i have had

600
00:23:44,789 --> 00:23:43,279
um kind of seem to be more powerful and

601
00:23:45,909 --> 00:23:44,799
prevalent when

602
00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:45,919
i'm

603
00:23:51,430 --> 00:23:48,720
let's say just by myself live performing

604
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:51,440
a song on the acoustic in really with no

605
00:23:55,350 --> 00:23:53,039
inhibitions just

606
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:55,360
like letting loose by myself

607
00:23:57,750 --> 00:23:56,720
does that make sense would that

608
00:24:00,070 --> 00:23:57,760
correlate

609
00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:00,080
absolutely yeah because you're probably

610
00:24:04,390 --> 00:24:03,120
dropping into a deeper contemplative

611
00:24:05,669 --> 00:24:04,400
meditative mode

612
00:24:07,909 --> 00:24:05,679
right and there's probably more

613
00:24:09,750 --> 00:24:07,919
coherence in your field right your

614
00:24:11,350 --> 00:24:09,760
subtle energy field your

615
00:24:13,269 --> 00:24:11,360
brain states and so you're probably

616
00:24:15,190 --> 00:24:13,279
entering into

617
00:24:16,950 --> 00:24:15,200
basically a contact modality like so

618
00:24:18,470 --> 00:24:16,960
playing music and this is one of the

619
00:24:20,630 --> 00:24:18,480
things that really struck me about the

620
00:24:22,230 --> 00:24:20,640
free research right the foundation for

621
00:24:24,390 --> 00:24:22,240
research on extraordinary and

622
00:24:26,870 --> 00:24:24,400
extraterrestrial experiences that ray

623
00:24:28,549 --> 00:24:26,880
hernandez and his team put together and

624
00:24:29,430 --> 00:24:28,559
they did this global survey a few years

625
00:24:32,470 --> 00:24:29,440
ago

626
00:24:34,230 --> 00:24:32,480
they started to realize that there's all

627
00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:34,240
kinds of contact modalities whether it's

628
00:24:39,190 --> 00:24:37,200
meditation or chanting playing music

629
00:24:41,350 --> 00:24:39,200
meditating prayer

630
00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:41,360
and and that matched my experience

631
00:24:44,710 --> 00:24:42,480
because i

632
00:24:47,110 --> 00:24:44,720
had been working my way through the nde

633
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:47,120
literature the out-of-body experience

634
00:24:51,110 --> 00:24:49,520
literature the psychedelic literature

635
00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:51,120
and i was kind of working through all

636
00:24:55,590 --> 00:24:53,520
these different bodies of literature and

637
00:24:58,070 --> 00:24:55,600
i kept discovering people were

638
00:25:00,310 --> 00:24:58,080
encountering ets and extra dimensionals

639
00:25:02,549 --> 00:25:00,320
through each of those modalities and i

640
00:25:04,630 --> 00:25:02,559
just kept thinking why do these beings

641
00:25:07,190 --> 00:25:04,640
keep showing up no matter what humans

642
00:25:09,510 --> 00:25:07,200
are doing right you know a

643
00:25:11,750 --> 00:25:09,520
wide range of contact modalities and

644
00:25:13,909 --> 00:25:11,760
that basically everything's practically

645
00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:13,919
a conduct modality right everything's

646
00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:16,320
like this entry point into what i call

647
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:18,720
our wild cosmos which is you know just

648
00:25:22,789 --> 00:25:20,720
the multi-dimensional multiverse that's

649
00:25:24,950 --> 00:25:22,799
highly populated with all kinds of

650
00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:24,960
sentient intelligences

651
00:25:28,230 --> 00:25:26,640
and you know and grant cameron's also

652
00:25:29,830 --> 00:25:28,240
done a lot of work around contact

653
00:25:31,990 --> 00:25:29,840
modalities but i think what's

654
00:25:34,549 --> 00:25:32,000
interesting about that is

655
00:25:36,950 --> 00:25:34,559
we're just as human beings we're prone

656
00:25:37,909 --> 00:25:36,960
to make contact with these types of

657
00:25:40,630 --> 00:25:37,919
beings

658
00:25:42,789 --> 00:25:40,640
through you know over a dozen even 20

659
00:25:45,669 --> 00:25:42,799
different kinds of

660
00:25:47,510 --> 00:25:45,679
expanded awareness practices right you

661
00:25:49,350 --> 00:25:47,520
know whether it's you know chanting

662
00:25:51,830 --> 00:25:49,360
playing an instrument you know

663
00:25:53,269 --> 00:25:51,840
meditating um and you know it's just

664
00:25:56,149 --> 00:25:53,279
fascinating that

665
00:25:57,750 --> 00:25:56,159
so many different kinds of practices

666
00:26:01,669 --> 00:25:57,760
people report

667
00:26:08,630 --> 00:26:03,990
interesting jay what do you got

668
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:08,640
um well i a i love that and b i was i'm

669
00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:11,039
thinking um

670
00:26:14,390 --> 00:26:13,200
there are so many

671
00:26:16,950 --> 00:26:14,400
along the lines of different

672
00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:16,960
methodologies and different approaches

673
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:18,880
it gets me thinking about

674
00:26:22,549 --> 00:26:21,200
kind of one of the central

675
00:26:26,789 --> 00:26:22,559
um

676
00:26:28,390 --> 00:26:26,799
one of the central ideas that that that

677
00:26:30,710 --> 00:26:28,400
where i found myself totally in

678
00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:30,720
alignment with you at the outset which

679
00:26:33,990 --> 00:26:32,480
was um

680
00:26:36,630 --> 00:26:34,000
that you

681
00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:36,640
you really advocate for bringing

682
00:26:43,029 --> 00:26:39,120
other approaches from other disciplines

683
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:43,039
into ufology and that that ufology

684
00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:44,640
and the anomalous

685
00:26:49,510 --> 00:26:46,480
anomalous studies in general could

686
00:26:51,669 --> 00:26:49,520
benefit from from bringing in

687
00:26:53,990 --> 00:26:51,679
and creatively using

688
00:26:55,190 --> 00:26:54,000
other approaches and other methodologies

689
00:26:56,070 --> 00:26:55,200
would you mind talking about that a

690
00:26:57,909 --> 00:26:56,080
little bit

691
00:27:00,070 --> 00:26:57,919
yeah so this is what i refer to as

692
00:27:01,470 --> 00:27:00,080
meta-disciplinary right you know so

693
00:27:03,590 --> 00:27:01,480
people probably heard of

694
00:27:04,830 --> 00:27:03,600
interdisciplinary cross-disciplinary

695
00:27:06,870 --> 00:27:04,840
even

696
00:27:08,630 --> 00:27:06,880
transdisciplinarity right these are all

697
00:27:10,789 --> 00:27:08,640
different terms that refer to slightly

698
00:27:13,190 --> 00:27:10,799
different approaches to weaving together

699
00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:13,200
insights from numerous disciplines

700
00:27:18,230 --> 00:27:15,600
and usually it's you know anywhere from

701
00:27:20,630 --> 00:27:18,240
three to ten disciplines that are being

702
00:27:23,750 --> 00:27:20,640
discussed in those contexts

703
00:27:26,470 --> 00:27:23,760
for me meta-disciplinary is basically

704
00:27:28,470 --> 00:27:26,480
those approaches on steroids right so

705
00:27:31,110 --> 00:27:28,480
it's like i started looking around i was

706
00:27:33,190 --> 00:27:31,120
like okay we have all the ufo kind of

707
00:27:34,549 --> 00:27:33,200
disciplines and approaches that you know

708
00:27:36,149 --> 00:27:34,559
some of which i was mentioning in

709
00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:36,159
relationship to the skinwalker ranch

710
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:37,120
quote

711
00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:39,120
but to really even understand those

712
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:40,960
phenomena right to look at all the weird

713
00:27:45,430 --> 00:27:43,200
things that happen at skinwalker

714
00:27:47,590 --> 00:27:45,440
right i started asking myself what does

715
00:27:49,909 --> 00:27:47,600
sociology have to offer us what does

716
00:27:51,750 --> 00:27:49,919
mainstream philosophy have to offer us

717
00:27:53,430 --> 00:27:51,760
you know what do space studies have to

718
00:27:55,590 --> 00:27:53,440
offer us you know what do the esoteric

719
00:27:57,909 --> 00:27:55,600
traditions have to offer us so i started

720
00:28:00,389 --> 00:27:57,919
making a list of all the key disciplines

721
00:28:04,070 --> 00:28:00,399
that i thought were important for trying

722
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:04,080
to crack the you know paranormal ufo nut

723
00:28:08,789 --> 00:28:06,320
and so i have three main categories that

724
00:28:10,310 --> 00:28:08,799
i think of in this context one is

725
00:28:12,070 --> 00:28:10,320
academic and

726
00:28:14,549 --> 00:28:12,080
philosophical disciplines and there's

727
00:28:16,789 --> 00:28:14,559
around 50 that i have listed out in an

728
00:28:19,269 --> 00:28:16,799
appendix to that article i mentioned and

729
00:28:21,590 --> 00:28:19,279
then there's ufo and space studies again

730
00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:21,600
about 50 disciplines that are listed out

731
00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:24,960
and then there's esoteric and paranormal

732
00:28:30,389 --> 00:28:27,520
disciplines again about 50 different

733
00:28:32,310 --> 00:28:30,399
distinct disciplines so it's 150

734
00:28:33,909 --> 00:28:32,320
different schools of thought right so

735
00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:33,919
this is kind of similar to my thing with

736
00:28:39,190 --> 00:28:36,320
ecology where there's 200 schools right

737
00:28:41,990 --> 00:28:39,200
so we basically have 150 different

738
00:28:43,990 --> 00:28:42,000
distinct disciplines and my orientation

739
00:28:46,149 --> 00:28:44,000
is each one of those has something

740
00:28:48,789 --> 00:28:46,159
interesting to offer us so like i look

741
00:28:51,029 --> 00:28:48,799
at the new developments in what's called

742
00:28:52,470 --> 00:28:51,039
new materialisms right this is a kind of

743
00:28:55,029 --> 00:28:52,480
branch of philosophy that looks at

744
00:28:56,630 --> 00:28:55,039
ontology and what's real how do we talk

745
00:28:58,549 --> 00:28:56,640
about what's real and there's this

746
00:29:01,430 --> 00:28:58,559
really fascinating movement this

747
00:29:03,830 --> 00:29:01,440
feminist movement in that space around

748
00:29:05,430 --> 00:29:03,840
new ways of understanding matter right

749
00:29:08,470 --> 00:29:05,440
and understanding matter as being

750
00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:08,480
dynamic and not static being vital and

751
00:29:13,350 --> 00:29:10,720
not dead right and so there's these kind

752
00:29:15,110 --> 00:29:13,360
of you know feminist philosophers of

753
00:29:17,669 --> 00:29:15,120
science that are developing a lot of

754
00:29:19,750 --> 00:29:17,679
interesting distinctions and frameworks

755
00:29:21,909 --> 00:29:19,760
within new materialism

756
00:29:23,909 --> 00:29:21,919
and so i look at that and i see all

757
00:29:26,149 --> 00:29:23,919
kinds of interesting insights that can

758
00:29:28,310 --> 00:29:26,159
help us make sense of the ufo phenomenon

759
00:29:30,149 --> 00:29:28,320
or anomalous experiences in general

760
00:29:32,389 --> 00:29:30,159
right so then i wonder

761
00:29:34,710 --> 00:29:32,399
what else is happening out there in kind

762
00:29:37,350 --> 00:29:34,720
of mainstream discourse

763
00:29:39,590 --> 00:29:37,360
that we would benefit from if we were

764
00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:39,600
made aware of it and brought it in right

765
00:29:43,430 --> 00:29:41,360
so like even you think of jack hunter

766
00:29:45,669 --> 00:29:43,440
and his work with you know parent

767
00:29:47,909 --> 00:29:45,679
anthropology right which a lot of you

768
00:29:50,149 --> 00:29:47,919
know ufo knots you know might not even

769
00:29:53,110 --> 00:29:50,159
be aware of but he has this great

770
00:29:55,350 --> 00:29:53,120
concept of ontological flooding which is

771
00:29:57,350 --> 00:29:55,360
essentially like opening yourself up to

772
00:30:00,310 --> 00:29:57,360
the possibility that the weirdest of the

773
00:30:03,350 --> 00:30:00,320
weird is actually true right so you

774
00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:03,360
flood yourself with the possibility that

775
00:30:08,149 --> 00:30:06,000
like what a experiencer is telling you

776
00:30:11,669 --> 00:30:08,159
you remain open to what they're telling

777
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:11,679
you might actually be the way reality is

778
00:30:17,350 --> 00:30:14,399
as it's being described right like with

779
00:30:19,830 --> 00:30:17,360
no distortion no cultural filter or

780
00:30:21,269 --> 00:30:19,840
anything right and and we can bring in

781
00:30:23,269 --> 00:30:21,279
the cognitive distortions and the

782
00:30:25,909 --> 00:30:23,279
cultural filters too as another layer of

783
00:30:28,549 --> 00:30:25,919
analysis but the move with ontological

784
00:30:31,190 --> 00:30:28,559
flooding is just you know taking that

785
00:30:33,430 --> 00:30:31,200
face value what the witness is telling

786
00:30:35,669 --> 00:30:33,440
you and really building a philosophical

787
00:30:37,990 --> 00:30:35,679
basis for why that's justified why

788
00:30:39,909 --> 00:30:38,000
that's important and how that actually

789
00:30:42,389 --> 00:30:39,919
can help us better understand what's

790
00:30:44,310 --> 00:30:42,399
happening because so much of you know

791
00:30:47,669 --> 00:30:44,320
the scientific orientation even in

792
00:30:50,149 --> 00:30:47,679
anthropology is you bracket out the what

793
00:30:52,630 --> 00:30:50,159
the witness says and he kind of set it

794
00:30:54,870 --> 00:30:52,640
aside and say oh isn't that nice you

795
00:30:55,669 --> 00:30:54,880
know like that's interesting right like

796
00:30:56,950 --> 00:30:55,679
they

797
00:30:59,269 --> 00:30:56,960
don't know

798
00:31:01,190 --> 00:30:59,279
what reality is like they're deluded or

799
00:31:03,909 --> 00:31:01,200
they're just uneducated or they just

800
00:31:05,990 --> 00:31:03,919
have certain beliefs right so that you

801
00:31:07,909 --> 00:31:06,000
know really is the style of a lot of

802
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:07,919
kind of mainstream scientific and

803
00:31:12,389 --> 00:31:10,320
anthropological sociological thinking

804
00:31:14,630 --> 00:31:12,399
but jack hunter's developed this really

805
00:31:17,350 --> 00:31:14,640
rich concept he bases it on a lot of

806
00:31:19,509 --> 00:31:17,360
charles fort's work right of this new

807
00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:19,519
notion of ontological flooding where

808
00:31:24,470 --> 00:31:22,080
what happens to your thinking when you

809
00:31:26,789 --> 00:31:24,480
allow yourself to be flooded with the

810
00:31:28,549 --> 00:31:26,799
possibilities that what the the

811
00:31:31,509 --> 00:31:28,559
experiencer is telling you

812
00:31:32,870 --> 00:31:31,519
might actually be the case right

813
00:31:34,789 --> 00:31:32,880
yeah

814
00:31:36,389 --> 00:31:34,799
you know that's that's quite interesting

815
00:31:39,509 --> 00:31:36,399
i i would imagine

816
00:31:40,630 --> 00:31:39,519
that even more of the goal is to

817
00:31:43,830 --> 00:31:40,640
um

818
00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:43,840
not not just think and process like like

819
00:31:47,990 --> 00:31:46,960
it's real but actually like organically

820
00:31:49,590 --> 00:31:48,000
feel

821
00:31:52,149 --> 00:31:49,600
that it's true like almost putting

822
00:31:53,590 --> 00:31:52,159
yourself in the same space and like it's

823
00:31:54,950 --> 00:31:53,600
like you're looking at something right

824
00:31:56,950 --> 00:31:54,960
in front of you

825
00:31:58,149 --> 00:31:56,960
yeah you know and you know jay's very

826
00:32:00,470 --> 00:31:58,159
familiar with this because this is like

827
00:32:03,430 --> 00:32:00,480
one of my mantras but you know my core

828
00:32:05,350 --> 00:32:03,440
orientation is to take things seriously

829
00:32:08,149 --> 00:32:05,360
and to hold them lightly

830
00:32:09,669 --> 00:32:08,159
right so so and to do both together

831
00:32:11,509 --> 00:32:09,679
right so

832
00:32:13,830 --> 00:32:11,519
you know so the taking it seriously is

833
00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:13,840
the ontological flooding it's really

834
00:32:18,549 --> 00:32:16,480
opening up to the the possibility that

835
00:32:21,029 --> 00:32:18,559
what you're hearing might be some

836
00:32:22,549 --> 00:32:21,039
accurate version of reality and then you

837
00:32:24,789 --> 00:32:22,559
have to hold it lightly right because

838
00:32:27,029 --> 00:32:24,799
there are all these distortions and you

839
00:32:28,710 --> 00:32:27,039
know ways that you know humans get in in

840
00:32:30,549 --> 00:32:28,720
the way of themselves you know and like

841
00:32:32,470 --> 00:32:30,559
right so we can't ignore that there's a

842
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:32,480
lot of great you know work that's done

843
00:32:36,549 --> 00:32:34,960
on that but what happens is the skeptics

844
00:32:38,230 --> 00:32:36,559
will point to

845
00:32:39,190 --> 00:32:38,240
all the good reasons to take something

846
00:32:41,350 --> 00:32:39,200
lightly

847
00:32:43,350 --> 00:32:41,360
right and the you know experiencers and

848
00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:43,360
the ufo community will point to all the

849
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:45,440
reasons to take it seriously and i'm

850
00:32:49,110 --> 00:32:47,120
saying like all right let's practice

851
00:32:51,029 --> 00:32:49,120
both like in a very serious way like

852
00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:51,039
let's take it seriously but let's hold

853
00:32:55,110 --> 00:32:53,120
it lightly and then let's see what

854
00:32:58,070 --> 00:32:55,120
happens in our creative process and

855
00:33:02,070 --> 00:32:58,080
dialogue and in in our thinking around

856
00:33:06,310 --> 00:33:04,310
that's what i do on this show

857
00:33:07,590 --> 00:33:06,320
yeah that's like my goal

858
00:33:08,789 --> 00:33:07,600
yeah

859
00:33:11,190 --> 00:33:08,799
it's awesome

860
00:33:12,870 --> 00:33:11,200
it's go ahead

861
00:33:15,909 --> 00:33:12,880
well you should just be you should be

862
00:33:17,669 --> 00:33:15,919
able to take take on you know and this

863
00:33:19,990 --> 00:33:17,679
goes back to the bigfoot people don't

864
00:33:21,590 --> 00:33:20,000
talk to these people but you know back

865
00:33:24,389 --> 00:33:21,600
and forth it's like

866
00:33:27,269 --> 00:33:24,399
these uh barriers that we just find a

867
00:33:30,310 --> 00:33:27,279
way to put in between each other

868
00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:30,320
is almost the problem in and of itself

869
00:33:35,590 --> 00:33:33,360
and when we can drop those barriers down

870
00:33:38,070 --> 00:33:35,600
and you know take things seriously but

871
00:33:41,110 --> 00:33:38,080
hold them lightly i feel like we'll all

872
00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:41,120
learn from each other so much more um so

873
00:33:45,430 --> 00:33:42,559
it's really nice to hear you speak like

874
00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:45,440
that yeah yeah and i think i think one

875
00:33:49,029 --> 00:33:47,279
thing along those that makes it super

876
00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:49,039
useful and like

877
00:33:53,509 --> 00:33:51,760
to me like the idea of whether something

878
00:33:57,750 --> 00:33:53,519
is

879
00:33:59,990 --> 00:33:57,760
one of the highest compliments you know

880
00:34:01,909 --> 00:34:00,000
what i mean it's not whether it feels

881
00:34:04,789 --> 00:34:01,919
good or feels bad or whatever it's

882
00:34:07,110 --> 00:34:04,799
whether something is useful or not and i

883
00:34:09,349 --> 00:34:07,120
think that it's just so useful the idea

884
00:34:11,109 --> 00:34:09,359
of taking something seriously and

885
00:34:12,710 --> 00:34:11,119
holding it lightly because

886
00:34:14,710 --> 00:34:12,720
you know there like

887
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:14,720
so much within anomalous studies has

888
00:34:18,310 --> 00:34:15,520
been

889
00:34:21,669 --> 00:34:18,320
uh hampered by people

890
00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:21,679
pushing down data points and not talking

891
00:34:26,950 --> 00:34:24,800
about data because it seems too weird it

892
00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:26,960
seems like outside of the box

893
00:34:31,589 --> 00:34:29,440
and when we can't even listen to what

894
00:34:33,510 --> 00:34:31,599
that weirdness is

895
00:34:35,349 --> 00:34:33,520
yeah even though especially because

896
00:34:37,349 --> 00:34:35,359
we're in we're in a field that is

897
00:34:40,550 --> 00:34:37,359
already weird that is already deeply

898
00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:40,560
weird so what's three percent more weird

899
00:34:44,069 --> 00:34:42,159
right well a lot of what is the what's

900
00:34:45,669 --> 00:34:44,079
the risk of three percent three percent

901
00:34:47,669 --> 00:34:45,679
more weird or five percent more weird

902
00:34:50,550 --> 00:34:47,679
right to play devil's advocate people

903
00:34:53,510 --> 00:34:50,560
would say um you know i can't even

904
00:34:55,510 --> 00:34:53,520
understand what this thing is in the sky

905
00:34:57,589 --> 00:34:55,520
let alone thinking about

906
00:35:00,069 --> 00:34:57,599
you know an abduction experience or a

907
00:35:00,950 --> 00:35:00,079
consciousness thing or you know

908
00:35:05,109 --> 00:35:00,960
that's

909
00:35:08,150 --> 00:35:05,119
it's like uh everything at once can be

910
00:35:09,589 --> 00:35:08,160
too overwhelming for for people

911
00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:09,599
yeah and here's another reason why i

912
00:35:13,349 --> 00:35:11,760
think you know some version of this take

913
00:35:15,270 --> 00:35:13,359
things seriously hold them lightly is

914
00:35:18,550 --> 00:35:15,280
important because it's actually a

915
00:35:21,750 --> 00:35:18,560
practice of awareness and it it is a way

916
00:35:24,950 --> 00:35:21,760
of embracing kind of a paradoxical mode

917
00:35:27,349 --> 00:35:24,960
of thinking and and orienting to kind of

918
00:35:29,510 --> 00:35:27,359
embracing both sides of a possibility

919
00:35:31,750 --> 00:35:29,520
that it's true and it's not true and

920
00:35:35,270 --> 00:35:31,760
kind of being equally comfortable with

921
00:35:37,270 --> 00:35:35,280
those both being the case simultaneously

922
00:35:40,069 --> 00:35:37,280
right and why this is important is

923
00:35:43,750 --> 00:35:40,079
because in my view is

924
00:35:46,710 --> 00:35:43,760
the phenomenon has at its core you know

925
00:35:48,310 --> 00:35:46,720
i would claim um this quality that i

926
00:35:50,790 --> 00:35:48,320
label doubleness

927
00:35:53,589 --> 00:35:50,800
where it's simultaneously

928
00:35:55,270 --> 00:35:53,599
physical and mental it's simultaneously

929
00:35:57,589 --> 00:35:55,280
um inside and outside it's

930
00:35:59,030 --> 00:35:57,599
simultaneously you know

931
00:36:00,790 --> 00:35:59,040
you know so many things it's

932
00:36:03,349 --> 00:36:00,800
contradictory right and this is what

933
00:36:05,510 --> 00:36:03,359
kind of eludes us and makes it so weird

934
00:36:07,270 --> 00:36:05,520
is we we can't tell like oh is i'm am i

935
00:36:09,190 --> 00:36:07,280
just making it up or no there's actually

936
00:36:10,870 --> 00:36:09,200
you know physical trace evidence or like

937
00:36:12,470 --> 00:36:10,880
but then it like disappeared and then

938
00:36:15,510 --> 00:36:12,480
it's like you know like so it's like it

939
00:36:17,109 --> 00:36:15,520
kind of boggles our categories and so by

940
00:36:19,990 --> 00:36:17,119
taking them things seriously and holding

941
00:36:21,829 --> 00:36:20,000
it lightly it actually cultivates in our

942
00:36:24,069 --> 00:36:21,839
own stream of consciousness kind of a

943
00:36:26,950 --> 00:36:24,079
paradoxical doubleness

944
00:36:29,190 --> 00:36:26,960
that actually i feel is like akin to

945
00:36:31,109 --> 00:36:29,200
the core nature of the phenomenon so it

946
00:36:33,510 --> 00:36:31,119
allows us to actually kind of

947
00:36:35,750 --> 00:36:33,520
relate to and be in relationship with

948
00:36:37,589 --> 00:36:35,760
the phenomena kind of on its own terms

949
00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:37,599
right opposed to trying to fit it into

950
00:36:41,349 --> 00:36:39,760
our categories in our boxes and say it's

951
00:36:42,950 --> 00:36:41,359
all this or all that it's all nuts and

952
00:36:44,790 --> 00:36:42,960
bolts or it's all consciousness it's

953
00:36:48,069 --> 00:36:44,800
like right you know it's both and it's

954
00:36:49,670 --> 00:36:48,079
neither right it's like so you know like

955
00:36:51,750 --> 00:36:49,680
just to give an example i've had a

956
00:36:53,750 --> 00:36:51,760
couple powerful experiences

957
00:36:55,349 --> 00:36:53,760
where i've experienced myself as a

958
00:36:57,750 --> 00:36:55,359
mantis being

959
00:36:58,630 --> 00:36:57,760
and so i've been left with the sense

960
00:36:59,910 --> 00:36:58,640
that

961
00:37:02,630 --> 00:36:59,920
you know there's a number of ways for me

962
00:37:05,349 --> 00:37:02,640
to make sense of that right and and one

963
00:37:08,230 --> 00:37:05,359
strong intuition i have is that in some

964
00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:08,240
parallel dimension i am a mantis being

965
00:37:13,349 --> 00:37:10,400
or you know i'm connected to a mantis

966
00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:13,359
being in some important way right so on

967
00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:16,079
the one hand i take it seriously that i

968
00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:18,720
might be or be connected to a mantis

969
00:37:22,470 --> 00:37:21,280
being um in some other dimension or in

970
00:37:24,870 --> 00:37:22,480
some sense

971
00:37:27,270 --> 00:37:24,880
right and so so i opened myself up to

972
00:37:29,349 --> 00:37:27,280
that identity and then at the same time

973
00:37:31,030 --> 00:37:29,359
i just honestly believe i have no effing

974
00:37:33,510 --> 00:37:31,040
idea like you know like

975
00:37:34,790 --> 00:37:33,520
who knows right so on the one hand i'm

976
00:37:37,030 --> 00:37:34,800
comfortable saying yeah i'm

977
00:37:37,829 --> 00:37:37,040
simultaneously a mantis bean

978
00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:37,839
and

979
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:39,440
absolutely not i don't know but i could

980
00:37:44,069 --> 00:37:41,520
be wrong

981
00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:44,079
right so i'm equally convinced of both

982
00:37:48,230 --> 00:37:45,920
possibilities right you know and so

983
00:37:49,829 --> 00:37:48,240
that's the doubleness of like inviting

984
00:37:52,230 --> 00:37:49,839
that doubleness into our own

985
00:37:54,710 --> 00:37:52,240
experiential awareness because the

986
00:37:57,109 --> 00:37:54,720
phenomenon constantly demonstrates this

987
00:37:59,430 --> 00:37:57,119
doubleness right and i i almost feel

988
00:38:00,550 --> 00:37:59,440
like it's inviting us to to develop a

989
00:38:02,870 --> 00:38:00,560
more

990
00:38:04,950 --> 00:38:02,880
double quality of awareness right and

991
00:38:06,550 --> 00:38:04,960
like so this practice is one way to kind

992
00:38:08,150 --> 00:38:06,560
of dance with them

993
00:38:10,470 --> 00:38:08,160
you know yeah it's almost like saying

994
00:38:12,790 --> 00:38:10,480
let the game come to you like not to use

995
00:38:15,030 --> 00:38:12,800
a sports quote but you know just let it

996
00:38:15,990 --> 00:38:15,040
come take it all in and yeah

997
00:38:17,270 --> 00:38:16,000
um

998
00:38:19,270 --> 00:38:17,280
that's interesting that you say that

999
00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:19,280
because i've had an experience with i

1000
00:38:24,310 --> 00:38:22,320
guess what would be called a gray in a

1001
00:38:26,950 --> 00:38:24,320
spaceship where

1002
00:38:29,270 --> 00:38:26,960
you know it was pretty intense

1003
00:38:31,990 --> 00:38:29,280
and but i you know i'm like is this real

1004
00:38:33,430 --> 00:38:32,000
is this not real whatever um and we gave

1005
00:38:35,430 --> 00:38:33,440
each other a hug and it felt just like

1006
00:38:38,550 --> 00:38:35,440
me it felt like i was hugging myself you

1007
00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:38,560
know and i had kind of that same process

1008
00:38:42,230 --> 00:38:40,640
um thought process i guess but jay you

1009
00:38:43,270 --> 00:38:42,240
were gonna say something i didn't mean

1010
00:38:45,109 --> 00:38:43,280
to interrupt

1011
00:38:47,750 --> 00:38:45,119
oh no and i think that that's really

1012
00:38:49,750 --> 00:38:47,760
important you know that and also just

1013
00:38:52,310 --> 00:38:49,760
the idea of like

1014
00:38:54,870 --> 00:38:52,320
of when we think of these concepts like

1015
00:38:57,910 --> 00:38:54,880
you were just saying of of is this real

1016
00:39:00,950 --> 00:38:57,920
or is this not real it gets back to

1017
00:39:03,030 --> 00:39:00,960
conversations that people like john mack

1018
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:03,040
or pat harper and other people like that

1019
00:39:07,670 --> 00:39:05,280
have talked about where it's like

1020
00:39:11,190 --> 00:39:07,680
you know there could be other

1021
00:39:14,550 --> 00:39:11,200
useful conceptions of what is real

1022
00:39:16,870 --> 00:39:14,560
that can be true in terms of like

1023
00:39:18,790 --> 00:39:16,880
you know we don't know there's always

1024
00:39:21,510 --> 00:39:18,800
that old like i think it was don

1025
00:39:24,069 --> 00:39:21,520
rumsfeld that used to you know talk

1026
00:39:26,470 --> 00:39:24,079
about this back in the days of the iraq

1027
00:39:28,870 --> 00:39:26,480
war and things like that where he'd say

1028
00:39:29,670 --> 00:39:28,880
well there's the known knowns and then

1029
00:39:33,430 --> 00:39:29,680
there's

1030
00:39:34,870 --> 00:39:33,440
we we know

1031
00:39:36,950 --> 00:39:34,880
you know there's things that we know

1032
00:39:39,270 --> 00:39:36,960
that we don't know but then what i get

1033
00:39:41,349 --> 00:39:39,280
really freaked out about is the unknown

1034
00:39:42,470 --> 00:39:41,359
unknowns where we don't know what we

1035
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:42,480
don't know

1036
00:39:47,670 --> 00:39:45,760
right and and that comes into play so

1037
00:39:49,190 --> 00:39:47,680
much within these situations that i

1038
00:39:50,790 --> 00:39:49,200
think what you're what you're both

1039
00:39:53,589 --> 00:39:50,800
talking about in terms of like letting

1040
00:39:55,750 --> 00:39:53,599
it come to you or trying to embody

1041
00:39:57,589 --> 00:39:55,760
some of these these paradoxical

1042
00:39:59,910 --> 00:39:57,599
situations

1043
00:40:01,910 --> 00:39:59,920
because we all we you know some of the

1044
00:40:05,109 --> 00:40:01,920
archetypes that we use for these

1045
00:40:07,190 --> 00:40:05,119
situations are like tricksters they like

1046
00:40:08,829 --> 00:40:07,200
they like to speak in riddles whoever

1047
00:40:11,190 --> 00:40:08,839
they are you know these kinds of

1048
00:40:13,510 --> 00:40:11,200
situations and the doubleness or screen

1049
00:40:14,790 --> 00:40:13,520
memories all of these kinds of things

1050
00:40:17,910 --> 00:40:14,800
that become

1051
00:40:20,230 --> 00:40:17,920
that are it's easy to to

1052
00:40:22,309 --> 00:40:20,240
want to throw your hands up in the air

1053
00:40:25,670 --> 00:40:22,319
because because it becomes a hall of

1054
00:40:28,069 --> 00:40:25,680
mirrors or or what like jeffrey kreipel

1055
00:40:30,069 --> 00:40:28,079
calls like the waste by the wastebasket

1056
00:40:32,150 --> 00:40:30,079
problem where you just where you just

1057
00:40:34,150 --> 00:40:32,160
like throw everything you're like okay

1058
00:40:35,510 --> 00:40:34,160
sasquatch it's going in there fairies

1059
00:40:37,589 --> 00:40:35,520
it's going in there

1060
00:40:40,150 --> 00:40:37,599
raised they're going in there and then

1061
00:40:41,270 --> 00:40:40,160
you know i i keep i i've said it before

1062
00:40:43,589 --> 00:40:41,280
and i'll say it again you know in a

1063
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:43,599
hundred years there's gonna be some gray

1064
00:40:47,510 --> 00:40:45,359
that's like why why why were you

1065
00:40:49,829 --> 00:40:47,520
comparing me to a set like a like a

1066
00:40:55,270 --> 00:40:49,839
weird like like woods ape like what was

1067
00:40:59,750 --> 00:40:57,990
it's possible right um so

1068
00:41:00,870 --> 00:40:59,760
yeah so

1069
00:41:03,430 --> 00:41:00,880
you know

1070
00:41:04,790 --> 00:41:03,440
one thing that's that's come up

1071
00:41:07,349 --> 00:41:04,800
this gets back to something that's come

1072
00:41:09,910 --> 00:41:07,359
up lately and i'm so glad that we're

1073
00:41:12,950 --> 00:41:09,920
kind of getting to the point where where

1074
00:41:14,710 --> 00:41:12,960
people like mac and valet are

1075
00:41:16,630 --> 00:41:14,720
people are actually able to kind of wrap

1076
00:41:18,470 --> 00:41:16,640
their heads around it finally in some

1077
00:41:20,870 --> 00:41:18,480
ways within the field of ufology and

1078
00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:20,880
whatnot and you know one thing that's

1079
00:41:26,390 --> 00:41:23,839
come up is in fact going back to villain

1080
00:41:27,510 --> 00:41:26,400
before in this corner of the weird is

1081
00:41:31,990 --> 00:41:27,520
that

1082
00:41:35,109 --> 00:41:32,000
need better terms right we need to have

1083
00:41:38,230 --> 00:41:35,119
a clear idea of what we're all talking

1084
00:41:40,309 --> 00:41:38,240
about right right there's like with

1085
00:41:42,470 --> 00:41:40,319
you know some one of the things in in

1086
00:41:45,109 --> 00:41:42,480
this arena is that

1087
00:41:48,069 --> 00:41:45,119
that the term wu or something like that

1088
00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:48,079
is also its own wastebasket problem

1089
00:41:53,030 --> 00:41:49,200
where

1090
00:41:55,349 --> 00:41:53,040
nuts and bolts oriented well here's some

1091
00:41:58,069 --> 00:41:55,359
idea that relates to actually something

1092
00:42:00,630 --> 00:41:58,079
pretty refined within consciousness

1093
00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:00,640
or cognitive studies and go like it's

1094
00:42:04,790 --> 00:42:03,280
too weird for me that's woo

1095
00:42:07,190 --> 00:42:04,800
right

1096
00:42:09,990 --> 00:42:07,200
when in fact it there may be whole like

1097
00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:10,000
phd programs built around

1098
00:42:13,910 --> 00:42:11,760
you know whatever that is whether it's

1099
00:42:16,790 --> 00:42:13,920
like don hoffman's case against reality

1100
00:42:19,109 --> 00:42:16,800
or simulation theory or or any of these

1101
00:42:20,950 --> 00:42:19,119
other ideas that seem deeply strange to

1102
00:42:22,550 --> 00:42:20,960
some people that might want to just look

1103
00:42:24,069 --> 00:42:22,560
through a telescope and see a craft

1104
00:42:26,309 --> 00:42:24,079
somewhere right

1105
00:42:27,670 --> 00:42:26,319
um but do you think

1106
00:42:32,309 --> 00:42:27,680
like

1107
00:42:35,030 --> 00:42:32,319
how could we benefit from better terms a

1108
00:42:36,550 --> 00:42:35,040
and and i'll just let that hang out and

1109
00:42:37,510 --> 00:42:36,560
then i've got a follow-up question to

1110
00:42:39,910 --> 00:42:37,520
that

1111
00:42:42,550 --> 00:42:39,920
well this is absolutely kind of my

1112
00:42:44,710 --> 00:42:42,560
passion and like why i want to develop

1113
00:42:45,589 --> 00:42:44,720
an integrative meta framework in exo

1114
00:42:48,710 --> 00:42:45,599
studies

1115
00:42:51,109 --> 00:42:48,720
because it's my experience that having a

1116
00:42:53,190 --> 00:42:51,119
good integrative framework that has a

1117
00:42:55,109 --> 00:42:53,200
number of useful distinctions and

1118
00:42:57,430 --> 00:42:55,119
including introducing you know useful

1119
00:42:59,030 --> 00:42:57,440
terms or identifying key terms that

1120
00:43:01,430 --> 00:42:59,040
others have you know developed like you

1121
00:43:03,190 --> 00:43:01,440
know jack hunter's you know ontological

1122
00:43:05,829 --> 00:43:03,200
flooding you know as a you know a good

1123
00:43:07,430 --> 00:43:05,839
example you know kind of finding those

1124
00:43:09,430 --> 00:43:07,440
concepts and terms that people have

1125
00:43:11,910 --> 00:43:09,440
developed in other areas and then

1126
00:43:15,030 --> 00:43:11,920
bringing them to bear in the context of

1127
00:43:17,349 --> 00:43:15,040
ufo and anomalous studies is because if

1128
00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:17,359
you don't have those distinctions

1129
00:43:21,670 --> 00:43:20,240
you can't talk about the phenomenon you

1130
00:43:23,990 --> 00:43:21,680
can't talk about whatever it is you're

1131
00:43:27,109 --> 00:43:24,000
trying to talk about the distinction the

1132
00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:27,119
terms allow you to have a new level of

1133
00:43:31,829 --> 00:43:29,760
conversation right and you know so right

1134
00:43:33,589 --> 00:43:31,839
now it's like we have the waste biscuit

1135
00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:33,599
problem with all these phenomena have

1136
00:43:38,790 --> 00:43:35,920
just been dumped into it and where woo

1137
00:43:41,109 --> 00:43:38,800
basically equals subtle energy right and

1138
00:43:43,349 --> 00:43:41,119
so all of the woo experiences are

1139
00:43:45,430 --> 00:43:43,359
basically different forms of people

1140
00:43:48,069 --> 00:43:45,440
experiencing subtle energies or being in

1141
00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:48,079
subtle realms or having subtle sensory

1142
00:43:52,950 --> 00:43:50,480
experiences so and they it all gets

1143
00:43:55,670 --> 00:43:52,960
called woo because we live in a highly

1144
00:43:58,550 --> 00:43:55,680
rational you know physical material

1145
00:44:01,109 --> 00:43:58,560
realm so anything that involves subtle

1146
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:01,119
subtle energy subtle senses subtle

1147
00:44:05,270 --> 00:44:04,000
beings like we're like oh my god like i

1148
00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:05,280
don't know what to do with that so

1149
00:44:09,829 --> 00:44:07,760
that's like weird that's woo like right

1150
00:44:11,510 --> 00:44:09,839
so in a way i often see when people are

1151
00:44:13,349 --> 00:44:11,520
talking about woo it's like it's like

1152
00:44:16,630 --> 00:44:13,359
their way of kind of like shoving the

1153
00:44:17,990 --> 00:44:16,640
subtle out of the you know the frame

1154
00:44:20,150 --> 00:44:18,000
because they're not comfortable with

1155
00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:20,160
anything that's not completely material

1156
00:44:23,990 --> 00:44:22,720
right and kind of physical and causal

1157
00:44:26,790 --> 00:44:24,000
and you know and kind of a good

1158
00:44:27,670 --> 00:44:26,800
mathematical kind of you know newtonian

1159
00:44:29,829 --> 00:44:27,680
sense

1160
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:29,839
right and so we end up with this waste

1161
00:44:34,950 --> 00:44:32,880
basket with you know 40 different

1162
00:44:36,950 --> 00:44:34,960
paranormal phenomenon that

1163
00:44:39,349 --> 00:44:36,960
obviously are interrelated in some sense

1164
00:44:42,150 --> 00:44:39,359
but in what sense we don't know so kind

1165
00:44:44,630 --> 00:44:42,160
of my approach is like dumpster diving

1166
00:44:46,390 --> 00:44:44,640
and it's like all right

1167
00:44:48,230 --> 00:44:46,400
and i'm trying to

1168
00:44:50,069 --> 00:44:48,240
okay what's going on here like what are

1169
00:44:52,069 --> 00:44:50,079
useful ways of understanding the

1170
00:44:53,750 --> 00:44:52,079
relationship between this phenomenon you

1171
00:44:55,750 --> 00:44:53,760
know in what ways are some things more

1172
00:44:58,230 --> 00:44:55,760
related to other things and less related

1173
00:45:00,790 --> 00:44:58,240
to other aspects right and one of the

1174
00:45:02,870 --> 00:45:00,800
things that emerged as i started looking

1175
00:45:05,910 --> 00:45:02,880
at you know a wide range of paranormal

1176
00:45:08,710 --> 00:45:05,920
phenomenon as almost all of it involves

1177
00:45:10,390 --> 00:45:08,720
the following four characteristics

1178
00:45:12,550 --> 00:45:10,400
um light

1179
00:45:14,630 --> 00:45:12,560
lights almost always involved

1180
00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:14,640
energy which could be the subtle energy

1181
00:45:19,270 --> 00:45:17,440
in a sense or electromagnetic energy so

1182
00:45:21,829 --> 00:45:19,280
light and energy

1183
00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:21,839
intelligence there's always some

1184
00:45:25,990 --> 00:45:24,400
experience or expression of intelligence

1185
00:45:29,030 --> 00:45:26,000
that's being described

1186
00:45:31,349 --> 00:45:29,040
and then participatory it's responsive

1187
00:45:34,309 --> 00:45:31,359
to us it's it's it's you know there's a

1188
00:45:36,390 --> 00:45:34,319
dynamic interplay between our awareness

1189
00:45:39,510 --> 00:45:36,400
and the phenomenon so these four things

1190
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:39,520
show up over and over again light energy

1191
00:45:44,950 --> 00:45:42,720
um intelligence and participatory right

1192
00:45:47,190 --> 00:45:44,960
so then those distinctions are helpful

1193
00:45:49,109 --> 00:45:47,200
and interesting right and so then you

1194
00:45:50,630 --> 00:45:49,119
know looking at the phenomena and trying

1195
00:45:53,109 --> 00:45:50,640
to understand what's the similarity

1196
00:45:55,349 --> 00:45:53,119
between ghost studies and psy phenomenon

1197
00:45:57,190 --> 00:45:55,359
and psychedelic experiences

1198
00:45:59,430 --> 00:45:57,200
right you know so when you look at

1199
00:46:02,309 --> 00:45:59,440
psychedelic experiences

1200
00:46:03,670 --> 00:46:02,319
and the kinds of beings that people

1201
00:46:05,430 --> 00:46:03,680
encounter

1202
00:46:06,950 --> 00:46:05,440
under certain drugs

1203
00:46:09,030 --> 00:46:06,960
some drugs

1204
00:46:11,750 --> 00:46:09,040
give people access to certain kinds of

1205
00:46:14,309 --> 00:46:11,760
beans right like so machine elves seem

1206
00:46:17,270 --> 00:46:14,319
to show up a lot with dmt but they don't

1207
00:46:19,750 --> 00:46:17,280
show up with other kinds of you know

1208
00:46:21,750 --> 00:46:19,760
psych you know psychedelics or drugs you

1209
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:21,760
know so there's something about dmt and

1210
00:46:27,109 --> 00:46:24,240
machine elves that's interesting there's

1211
00:46:29,990 --> 00:46:27,119
some link there but grays greys and

1212
00:46:31,910 --> 00:46:30,000
reptilians show up with any drug right

1213
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:31,920
so there's all kinds of reports from you

1214
00:46:35,990 --> 00:46:34,319
know over 20 different kinds of drugs

1215
00:46:38,550 --> 00:46:36,000
where different people at different

1216
00:46:41,349 --> 00:46:38,560
points have reported encountering either

1217
00:46:43,910 --> 00:46:41,359
grays or reptilians on all of those

1218
00:46:45,430 --> 00:46:43,920
drugs so why is that why is it those

1219
00:46:47,910 --> 00:46:45,440
beings show up

1220
00:46:49,510 --> 00:46:47,920
no matter kind of what kind of altered

1221
00:46:52,150 --> 00:46:49,520
you know consciousness substance you're

1222
00:46:53,990 --> 00:46:52,160
ingesting right and so so getting into

1223
00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:54,000
the distinction it's like okay so maybe

1224
00:46:58,870 --> 00:46:56,800
there's an ontological difference with

1225
00:47:00,790 --> 00:46:58,880
you know those beans than there is with

1226
00:47:04,710 --> 00:47:00,800
machine elves maybe machine elves are

1227
00:47:07,670 --> 00:47:04,720
somehow participatory linked to dmt and

1228
00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:07,680
dmt takes you into a realm where those

1229
00:47:13,349 --> 00:47:10,800
kinds of beans inhabit whereas greys and

1230
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:13,359
reptilians are able to transverse across

1231
00:47:17,589 --> 00:47:15,760
many dimensions and realms and can show

1232
00:47:19,829 --> 00:47:17,599
up whenever you expand your

1233
00:47:21,589 --> 00:47:19,839
consciousness in particular ways

1234
00:47:23,750 --> 00:47:21,599
right so by looking for these meta

1235
00:47:26,710 --> 00:47:23,760
patterns then it can inform you know

1236
00:47:28,710 --> 00:47:26,720
distinctions and and terms about you

1237
00:47:30,630 --> 00:47:28,720
know certain types of beings that are

1238
00:47:32,870 --> 00:47:30,640
maybe dependent and certain kinds of

1239
00:47:34,470 --> 00:47:32,880
contact modalities and then other kinds

1240
00:47:38,230 --> 00:47:34,480
of beings that seem to show up

1241
00:47:40,230 --> 00:47:38,240
regardless of the contact modality

1242
00:47:42,790 --> 00:47:40,240
yeah i think that that's brilliant

1243
00:47:45,190 --> 00:47:42,800
because i mean it it it points to the

1244
00:47:47,190 --> 00:47:45,200
idea that that the second that you kind

1245
00:47:51,589 --> 00:47:47,200
of remove the blinders

1246
00:47:53,109 --> 00:47:51,599
that the the the moment that that we

1247
00:47:56,230 --> 00:47:53,119
kind of

1248
00:47:57,670 --> 00:47:56,240
enact neurodivergence within ourselves

1249
00:47:59,349 --> 00:47:57,680
then it's just like holy like

1250
00:48:00,710 --> 00:47:59,359
there's stuff all around me like what is

1251
00:48:02,309 --> 00:48:00,720
that like

1252
00:48:04,470 --> 00:48:02,319
that we're in some kind of like cosmic

1253
00:48:07,030 --> 00:48:04,480
stew or something like that right yeah

1254
00:48:09,270 --> 00:48:07,040
so cosmic stew is basically the

1255
00:48:10,870 --> 00:48:09,280
phenomenon of being undifferentiated

1256
00:48:13,270 --> 00:48:10,880
like it's just everything's put in a big

1257
00:48:14,630 --> 00:48:13,280
stew in the wastebasket and we don't

1258
00:48:16,950 --> 00:48:14,640
know how to talk about it because we

1259
00:48:18,710 --> 00:48:16,960
don't have useful distinctions to be

1260
00:48:21,109 --> 00:48:18,720
able to differentiate between different

1261
00:48:23,670 --> 00:48:21,119
aspects of the phenomenon and that's why

1262
00:48:26,390 --> 00:48:23,680
developing frameworks and and terms and

1263
00:48:27,990 --> 00:48:26,400
concepts that allow us to tease it apart

1264
00:48:30,069 --> 00:48:28,000
and look at different aspects of the

1265
00:48:32,230 --> 00:48:30,079
phenomenon and go oh well this is

1266
00:48:34,230 --> 00:48:32,240
similar to this in this way but it's

1267
00:48:36,549 --> 00:48:34,240
different in this way but then that

1268
00:48:38,630 --> 00:48:36,559
difference shows up as a similarity with

1269
00:48:40,710 --> 00:48:38,640
you know these two aspects right you

1270
00:48:43,510 --> 00:48:40,720
know so like why do people who have

1271
00:48:45,829 --> 00:48:43,520
abduction experiences keep having

1272
00:48:47,750 --> 00:48:45,839
encounters with dead relatives you know

1273
00:48:50,309 --> 00:48:47,760
so what's going on there you know why

1274
00:48:52,230 --> 00:48:50,319
are those two phenomenon intersecting

1275
00:48:54,549 --> 00:48:52,240
over and over again you know so what is

1276
00:48:56,950 --> 00:48:54,559
it about the mode of consciousness that

1277
00:49:00,069 --> 00:48:56,960
someone's in that allows them to both

1278
00:49:01,910 --> 00:49:00,079
experience a dead relative and a gray

1279
00:49:04,230 --> 00:49:01,920
that's you know interacting with them in

1280
00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:04,240
an abduction-like scenario you know so

1281
00:49:08,230 --> 00:49:06,000
like how are those related and how are

1282
00:49:09,910 --> 00:49:08,240
they different you know so jacques villa

1283
00:49:12,549 --> 00:49:09,920
you know made a big splash you know in

1284
00:49:13,990 --> 00:49:12,559
the 60s with his passport to magnolia

1285
00:49:16,470 --> 00:49:14,000
you know where he's talking about

1286
00:49:18,790 --> 00:49:16,480
basically the fairy folklore was

1287
00:49:20,630 --> 00:49:18,800
essentially you know a series of contact

1288
00:49:22,870 --> 00:49:20,640
experiences you know that essentially

1289
00:49:24,870 --> 00:49:22,880
are the et's of today

1290
00:49:27,589 --> 00:49:24,880
i tend to disagree with that to an

1291
00:49:29,349 --> 00:49:27,599
extent in the in the following sense

1292
00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:29,359
i see there being two distinct

1293
00:49:33,589 --> 00:49:31,440
categories of beans there are fae

1294
00:49:35,589 --> 00:49:33,599
there's a whole host of different beans

1295
00:49:38,309 --> 00:49:35,599
that we could refer to as the fairy

1296
00:49:39,910 --> 00:49:38,319
beans or the fae or elementals and then

1297
00:49:41,510 --> 00:49:39,920
there's galactic beans and there's a

1298
00:49:44,069 --> 00:49:41,520
whole host of different beans that are

1299
00:49:47,990 --> 00:49:44,079
associated with more galactic aspects

1300
00:49:51,030 --> 00:49:48,000
now some fairies look like et's some ets

1301
00:49:52,710 --> 00:49:51,040
look like fairies and so you have to be

1302
00:49:54,790 --> 00:49:52,720
thoughtful and careful about how you

1303
00:49:56,630 --> 00:49:54,800
compare and contrast them because if you

1304
00:49:59,430 --> 00:49:56,640
just assume all fairies are just

1305
00:50:01,190 --> 00:49:59,440
basically people encountering ets but

1306
00:50:03,829 --> 00:50:01,200
interpreting them through a fairy lore

1307
00:50:06,950 --> 00:50:03,839
framework then you're reducing the

1308
00:50:08,150 --> 00:50:06,960
complexity of the phenomenon even though

1309
00:50:09,910 --> 00:50:08,160
you know there's you know there's

1310
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:09,920
something to that you know that there

1311
00:50:12,710 --> 00:50:11,520
are et's that look like fairies and

1312
00:50:14,710 --> 00:50:12,720
there are fairy beans that look like

1313
00:50:17,109 --> 00:50:14,720
et's right but you know they're

1314
00:50:19,910 --> 00:50:17,119
different and if you talk to fairy sears

1315
00:50:22,470 --> 00:50:19,920
you talk to people who have clairvoyance

1316
00:50:23,990 --> 00:50:22,480
who encounter and interact with these

1317
00:50:26,230 --> 00:50:24,000
nature beings

1318
00:50:27,430 --> 00:50:26,240
they will sometimes encounter grays and

1319
00:50:29,270 --> 00:50:27,440
they'll say oh yeah they're totally

1320
00:50:31,190 --> 00:50:29,280
different right like totally different

1321
00:50:33,910 --> 00:50:31,200
energy signature totally different

1322
00:50:35,430 --> 00:50:33,920
intentions you know and so you have to

1323
00:50:37,750 --> 00:50:35,440
find people who actually have

1324
00:50:39,510 --> 00:50:37,760
experiences with both kinds of beans

1325
00:50:41,750 --> 00:50:39,520
because then they'll tell you no they're

1326
00:50:43,750 --> 00:50:41,760
two separate categories and and here's

1327
00:50:46,150 --> 00:50:43,760
how i know that right and they'll

1328
00:50:48,390 --> 00:50:46,160
explain it to you but if you just go on

1329
00:50:50,950 --> 00:50:48,400
folklore and you look at the folklore

1330
00:50:52,549 --> 00:50:50,960
you and look at ufo encounter literature

1331
00:50:55,910 --> 00:50:52,559
you might think they're talking about

1332
00:50:58,069 --> 00:50:55,920
the same thing sometimes they are

1333
00:50:59,990 --> 00:50:58,079
often they are not right so you need

1334
00:51:01,750 --> 00:51:00,000
distinctions and frameworks to kind of

1335
00:51:03,910 --> 00:51:01,760
tease that apart because otherwise

1336
00:51:05,430 --> 00:51:03,920
you're overlaying one reality on another

1337
00:51:06,790 --> 00:51:05,440
one and you're missing some important

1338
00:51:09,430 --> 00:51:06,800
data points

1339
00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:09,440
yeah it's pretty go ahead sorry

1340
00:51:14,230 --> 00:51:12,400
no i and and like i i can just mentally

1341
00:51:15,589 --> 00:51:14,240
i can just imagine some people in the

1342
00:51:17,589 --> 00:51:15,599
youtube audience

1343
00:51:19,030 --> 00:51:17,599
like hearing the word berries and then

1344
00:51:20,790 --> 00:51:19,040
they just like turn their brain off and

1345
00:51:22,309 --> 00:51:20,800
they want to walk away and like i want

1346
00:51:24,150 --> 00:51:22,319
to tease out that distinction a little

1347
00:51:25,990 --> 00:51:24,160
bit because one of the things that that

1348
00:51:28,950 --> 00:51:26,000
comes down here is that like yes we have

1349
00:51:30,790 --> 00:51:28,960
that traditional word and and correct me

1350
00:51:33,109 --> 00:51:30,800
if i'm wrong here sean but like one part

1351
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:33,119
of this is just the idea that there is

1352
00:51:37,510 --> 00:51:35,520
like weird that is native to earth

1353
00:51:38,710 --> 00:51:37,520
yeah there's native that there's weird

1354
00:51:40,630 --> 00:51:38,720
paranormal

1355
00:51:42,309 --> 00:51:40,640
you know intelligences or beings that

1356
00:51:43,910 --> 00:51:42,319
are from around here

1357
00:51:46,870 --> 00:51:43,920
and then there are probably ones that

1358
00:51:49,270 --> 00:51:46,880
are from out there right or and i mean

1359
00:51:51,030 --> 00:51:49,280
to very much oversimplify things but

1360
00:51:53,510 --> 00:51:51,040
then the idea that like the fae or

1361
00:51:55,510 --> 00:51:53,520
something like that that that is like

1362
00:51:57,990 --> 00:51:55,520
we're talking about paranormal

1363
00:52:00,390 --> 00:51:58,000
entities that that are just kind of more

1364
00:52:02,950 --> 00:52:00,400
seem like they're more native to our

1365
00:52:05,510 --> 00:52:02,960
planet or like our sphere or something

1366
00:52:06,710 --> 00:52:05,520
like that is that is that does that seem

1367
00:52:08,150 --> 00:52:06,720
accurate

1368
00:52:09,750 --> 00:52:08,160
yeah and this is partly why the

1369
00:52:11,430 --> 00:52:09,760
skinwalker ranch

1370
00:52:12,790 --> 00:52:11,440
quote that we talked about earlier

1371
00:52:14,710 --> 00:52:12,800
really like

1372
00:52:16,950 --> 00:52:14,720
kind of activated something in my heart

1373
00:52:19,829 --> 00:52:16,960
when i read it is because

1374
00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:19,839
up to that point you know i had been

1375
00:52:21,910 --> 00:52:20,720
you know

1376
00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:21,920
drawn to

1377
00:52:25,910 --> 00:52:24,160
kind of the notion of nature spirits and

1378
00:52:27,589 --> 00:52:25,920
elementals for a long time and i

1379
00:52:30,069 --> 00:52:27,599
actually started engaging in the

1380
00:52:32,630 --> 00:52:30,079
traditions and the practices that allow

1381
00:52:35,589 --> 00:52:32,640
you to make contact and interact with

1382
00:52:38,069 --> 00:52:35,599
those beings and and work in that space

1383
00:52:40,630 --> 00:52:38,079
and so i've had a number of experiences

1384
00:52:43,109 --> 00:52:40,640
of kind of you know the reality of that

1385
00:52:45,510 --> 00:52:43,119
and the truthfulness of that and then

1386
00:52:47,829 --> 00:52:45,520
but the more i kind of went into the

1387
00:52:51,030 --> 00:52:47,839
inner earth if you will the more i kept

1388
00:52:53,190 --> 00:52:51,040
popping out into galactic experiences

1389
00:52:55,349 --> 00:52:53,200
and and this was really confusing to me

1390
00:52:57,910 --> 00:52:55,359
because when i would you know talk with

1391
00:53:00,309 --> 00:52:57,920
ufo folks they didn't want to talk about

1392
00:53:02,710 --> 00:53:00,319
fairies at all they're like nope like

1393
00:53:04,630 --> 00:53:02,720
you know like get out of here i go talk

1394
00:53:06,309 --> 00:53:04,640
to the you know the nature spirit folks

1395
00:53:08,790 --> 00:53:06,319
they don't want to talk about et's or

1396
00:53:10,950 --> 00:53:08,800
extra dimensionals at all so i was

1397
00:53:13,109 --> 00:53:10,960
having experiences with both

1398
00:53:15,750 --> 00:53:13,119
and neither of my communities of

1399
00:53:17,750 --> 00:53:15,760
practice wanted to deal with the other

1400
00:53:19,990 --> 00:53:17,760
half of that experience

1401
00:53:22,069 --> 00:53:20,000
right and it was maddening and confusing

1402
00:53:24,950 --> 00:53:22,079
and frustrating and then it was in

1403
00:53:26,470 --> 00:53:24,960
reading the meet the hybrids book where

1404
00:53:29,109 --> 00:53:26,480
you know there's eight people who are

1405
00:53:31,430 --> 00:53:29,119
interviewed there um i went through that

1406
00:53:33,430 --> 00:53:31,440
book and three or four of them talked

1407
00:53:35,829 --> 00:53:33,440
about experiences with both types of

1408
00:53:38,710 --> 00:53:35,839
beans as well as what are sometimes

1409
00:53:40,630 --> 00:53:38,720
called celestial beans or angelic beans

1410
00:53:42,549 --> 00:53:40,640
right i don't have experiences with

1411
00:53:44,710 --> 00:53:42,559
angelic beings so much so i i for

1412
00:53:47,270 --> 00:53:44,720
whatever reason i teen and plugged into

1413
00:53:49,109 --> 00:53:47,280
more the galactic and the fae aspects

1414
00:53:52,549 --> 00:53:49,119
other people are more plugged into the

1415
00:53:53,670 --> 00:53:52,559
celestial angelic or celestial and e.t

1416
00:53:55,829 --> 00:53:53,680
and you know so they're kind of

1417
00:53:58,230 --> 00:53:55,839
different karmas and propensities and

1418
00:54:00,870 --> 00:53:58,240
capacities that we have that connect us

1419
00:54:02,870 --> 00:54:00,880
with these different realms right and so

1420
00:54:05,190 --> 00:54:02,880
when i came across that skinhawker ranch

1421
00:54:07,349 --> 00:54:05,200
quote i had a direct experiential

1422
00:54:09,910 --> 00:54:07,359
correlate to what that looked like in my

1423
00:54:11,750 --> 00:54:09,920
own life to have two camps that

1424
00:54:13,910 --> 00:54:11,760
basically were denying half of my

1425
00:54:17,670 --> 00:54:13,920
experience but i was a member of both

1426
00:54:19,829 --> 00:54:17,680
communities right and so when i read the

1427
00:54:21,750 --> 00:54:19,839
you know meet the hybrids book i reached

1428
00:54:23,589 --> 00:54:21,760
out to three of the people who talked

1429
00:54:27,030 --> 00:54:23,599
about their experience with both kinds

1430
00:54:29,030 --> 00:54:27,040
of beans the fey and the galactic and i

1431
00:54:31,190 --> 00:54:29,040
set up you know sessions with them and

1432
00:54:33,109 --> 00:54:31,200
basically they kind of coached me and

1433
00:54:35,190 --> 00:54:33,119
helped me integrate my experience with

1434
00:54:37,589 --> 00:54:35,200
both types and they basically said yeah

1435
00:54:39,109 --> 00:54:37,599
like there's just it's a wild cosmos

1436
00:54:41,190 --> 00:54:39,119
there's just a lot of different kinds of

1437
00:54:43,990 --> 00:54:41,200
beans some are more connected to the

1438
00:54:45,270 --> 00:54:44,000
natural world and to the planet and some

1439
00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:45,280
you know are connected to other

1440
00:54:49,430 --> 00:54:47,520
dimensions and other realms you know and

1441
00:54:51,750 --> 00:54:49,440
so i think you know and when you look at

1442
00:54:53,910 --> 00:54:51,760
the indigenous cosmologies

1443
00:54:56,150 --> 00:54:53,920
indigenous cosmologies

1444
00:54:58,150 --> 00:54:56,160
by and large the world over they have a

1445
00:55:00,150 --> 00:54:58,160
place for the nature spirits they have a

1446
00:55:02,470 --> 00:55:00,160
place for the ets and they have a place

1447
00:55:04,710 --> 00:55:02,480
for sasquatch right you know and for

1448
00:55:06,549 --> 00:55:04,720
ghosts right so how is it the indigenous

1449
00:55:08,789 --> 00:55:06,559
cosmologies have no problem with

1450
00:55:10,390 --> 00:55:08,799
including all of this but in our

1451
00:55:13,109 --> 00:55:10,400
contemporary new age you know

1452
00:55:14,710 --> 00:55:13,119
metaphysics we get really uneasy if

1453
00:55:16,789 --> 00:55:14,720
we're connected to one of those camps

1454
00:55:17,670 --> 00:55:16,799
and someone starts talking about another

1455
00:55:19,109 --> 00:55:17,680
camp

1456
00:55:21,990 --> 00:55:19,119
yeah that's probably comes down to

1457
00:55:24,710 --> 00:55:22,000
interpersonal conflicts and you know

1458
00:55:27,190 --> 00:55:24,720
being too self-conscious and judgmental

1459
00:55:29,349 --> 00:55:27,200
and you know

1460
00:55:31,430 --> 00:55:29,359
more fear-based than anything i feel

1461
00:55:33,990 --> 00:55:31,440
like indigenous was probably a little

1462
00:55:35,990 --> 00:55:34,000
more organic in letting the game come to

1463
00:55:38,150 --> 00:55:36,000
them so to speak because

1464
00:55:39,270 --> 00:55:38,160
they were first starting the game you

1465
00:55:41,750 --> 00:55:39,280
know

1466
00:55:44,069 --> 00:55:41,760
the big reason as far as i can tell is

1467
00:55:46,390 --> 00:55:44,079
that part of it is that when you go out

1468
00:55:48,309 --> 00:55:46,400
on a limb if you go out on the ufo limb

1469
00:55:50,470 --> 00:55:48,319
or you go out on the nature spirit limb

1470
00:55:52,870 --> 00:55:50,480
or you go out on the ghost limb

1471
00:55:55,109 --> 00:55:52,880
you are aware of how far away from the

1472
00:55:57,510 --> 00:55:55,119
mainstream you are right and and it

1473
00:55:59,349 --> 00:55:57,520
feels very kind of unstable right you

1474
00:56:02,789 --> 00:55:59,359
know you you feel the snickers the

1475
00:56:04,789 --> 00:56:02,799
judgment you know and so the idea of you

1476
00:56:06,710 --> 00:56:04,799
know then bringing any one of those

1477
00:56:09,030 --> 00:56:06,720
other topics on if you feel like the

1478
00:56:10,870 --> 00:56:09,040
limbs gonna break right and you don't

1479
00:56:13,069 --> 00:56:10,880
want anything it's like it's too much

1480
00:56:16,309 --> 00:56:13,079
right so i think part of this kind of a

1481
00:56:18,309 --> 00:56:16,319
self-preservation orientation where

1482
00:56:19,190 --> 00:56:18,319
you've already committed to one weird

1483
00:56:21,030 --> 00:56:19,200
thing

1484
00:56:22,549 --> 00:56:21,040
you can't really handle committing to

1485
00:56:24,789 --> 00:56:22,559
more than one because it's just going to

1486
00:56:28,390 --> 00:56:24,799
break the bank right it's just no no

1487
00:56:34,870 --> 00:56:31,109
yeah

1488
00:56:36,870 --> 00:56:34,880
sense um and you would think like with

1489
00:56:38,150 --> 00:56:36,880
the with the first jump you know kind of

1490
00:56:39,750 --> 00:56:38,160
feeling it out making you know

1491
00:56:41,589 --> 00:56:39,760
everything kind of goes all right maybe

1492
00:56:44,470 --> 00:56:41,599
you start taking more

1493
00:56:47,270 --> 00:56:44,480
um as time goes on right uh but

1494
00:56:49,589 --> 00:56:47,280
sometimes you go backwards too you know

1495
00:56:51,589 --> 00:56:49,599
you take the jump and then you go back

1496
00:56:53,430 --> 00:56:51,599
you're like nope i don't know no that

1497
00:56:55,349 --> 00:56:53,440
wasn't for me you know

1498
00:56:57,990 --> 00:56:55,359
um it's all

1499
00:56:59,349 --> 00:56:58,000
so much and what you describe and how

1500
00:57:01,589 --> 00:56:59,359
you describe it

1501
00:57:04,390 --> 00:57:01,599
almost seems like a

1502
00:57:06,230 --> 00:57:04,400
just um maybe a part of the brain or a

1503
00:57:08,710 --> 00:57:06,240
part of the person or a part of the

1504
00:57:12,150 --> 00:57:08,720
consciousness that needs to

1505
00:57:15,750 --> 00:57:12,160
somehow be unlocked to be able to absorb

1506
00:57:16,870 --> 00:57:15,760
all of it at once you know

1507
00:57:19,190 --> 00:57:16,880
yeah

1508
00:57:21,270 --> 00:57:19,200
there's another aspect to you know the

1509
00:57:22,470 --> 00:57:21,280
the value of frameworks to give another

1510
00:57:23,990 --> 00:57:22,480
example

1511
00:57:25,910 --> 00:57:24,000
so

1512
00:57:27,670 --> 00:57:25,920
we often talk about like who are these

1513
00:57:29,349 --> 00:57:27,680
non-human intelligences you know kind of

1514
00:57:30,069 --> 00:57:29,359
like how do we make sense of them you

1515
00:57:32,549 --> 00:57:30,079
know

1516
00:57:34,549 --> 00:57:32,559
and i've been kind of putting together

1517
00:57:37,030 --> 00:57:34,559
as part of the exercise framework a list

1518
00:57:40,309 --> 00:57:37,040
of the kind of top dozen kind of

1519
00:57:42,150 --> 00:57:40,319
hypotheses as to who they are right and

1520
00:57:44,230 --> 00:57:42,160
so you have the extraterrestrial

1521
00:57:45,750 --> 00:57:44,240
hypothesis you have the extra

1522
00:57:48,150 --> 00:57:45,760
dimensional hypothesis you have the

1523
00:57:49,430 --> 00:57:48,160
breakaway civilization hypothesis you

1524
00:57:51,589 --> 00:57:49,440
know you have the time traveler

1525
00:57:53,430 --> 00:57:51,599
hypothesis and so the simulation

1526
00:57:55,430 --> 00:57:53,440
hypothesis so you have all these

1527
00:57:57,109 --> 00:57:55,440
different hypotheses and some of them

1528
00:57:59,349 --> 00:57:57,119
overlap and sometimes people believe two

1529
00:58:01,190 --> 00:57:59,359
or three of them but you really find

1530
00:58:03,270 --> 00:58:01,200
camps where people really just believe

1531
00:58:05,109 --> 00:58:03,280
in one of them and kind of exclude and

1532
00:58:06,630 --> 00:58:05,119
ignore the others or feel there isn't

1533
00:58:09,430 --> 00:58:06,640
anything to those

1534
00:58:12,069 --> 00:58:09,440
as far as i can tell they're all correct

1535
00:58:14,390 --> 00:58:12,079
they're all describing one or more

1536
00:58:16,870 --> 00:58:14,400
aspects of the phenomenon right so then

1537
00:58:18,630 --> 00:58:16,880
it's like okay some of these beans are

1538
00:58:20,150 --> 00:58:18,640
time traveling humans you know that have

1539
00:58:22,230 --> 00:58:20,160
come back to you know to interact with

1540
00:58:24,069 --> 00:58:22,240
us yeah all of them are actually flesh

1541
00:58:26,069 --> 00:58:24,079
and blood you know extraterrestrials

1542
00:58:28,150 --> 00:58:26,079
from other planets some of them are

1543
00:58:29,990 --> 00:58:28,160
extra dimensionals some of them have

1544
00:58:32,150 --> 00:58:30,000
been here longer than we've been here

1545
00:58:34,470 --> 00:58:32,160
and so they're intra terrestrials or

1546
00:58:36,710 --> 00:58:34,480
crypto terrestrials you know some of

1547
00:58:38,950 --> 00:58:36,720
them are humans that are part of a

1548
00:58:40,710 --> 00:58:38,960
breakaway civilization that just has

1549
00:58:42,710 --> 00:58:40,720
been doing their thing for the last 50

1550
00:58:44,390 --> 00:58:42,720
60 70 100 years

1551
00:58:46,470 --> 00:58:44,400
right you know and so

1552
00:58:48,950 --> 00:58:46,480
when you look at the wide range of

1553
00:58:51,030 --> 00:58:48,960
experiencer encounters the only way i

1554
00:58:53,109 --> 00:58:51,040
can make sense of the variety

1555
00:58:55,109 --> 00:58:53,119
is to and is to say

1556
00:58:57,589 --> 00:58:55,119
each of those hypothesis probably

1557
00:58:59,670 --> 00:58:57,599
explains a certain portion of those

1558
00:59:03,109 --> 00:58:59,680
encounters whether it's 10

1559
00:59:05,670 --> 00:59:03,119
or 5 or 50 you know that's to be figured

1560
00:59:08,069 --> 00:59:05,680
out yeah but i think all of them are

1561
00:59:09,270 --> 00:59:08,079
describing some part of the waste basket

1562
00:59:11,750 --> 00:59:09,280
right you know

1563
00:59:13,670 --> 00:59:11,760
so and so why are we fighting over no

1564
00:59:15,990 --> 00:59:13,680
it's this type of it's like well maybe

1565
00:59:18,150 --> 00:59:16,000
it's most of them or all of them right

1566
00:59:19,109 --> 00:59:18,160
yeah and how would you even know you

1567
00:59:20,870 --> 00:59:19,119
know

1568
00:59:22,630 --> 00:59:20,880
how do you yeah

1569
00:59:25,109 --> 00:59:22,640
and that's the take it seriously hold it

1570
00:59:26,549 --> 00:59:25,119
lightly like take it seriously that all

1571
00:59:29,109 --> 00:59:26,559
of these are

1572
00:59:31,109 --> 00:59:29,119
a valid consideration like these might

1573
00:59:33,829 --> 00:59:31,119
actually be describing some part of the

1574
00:59:36,710 --> 00:59:33,839
phenomenon hold it lightly because with

1575
00:59:38,630 --> 00:59:36,720
any given example you have no idea which

1576
00:59:40,789 --> 00:59:38,640
one it is right right

1577
00:59:42,549 --> 00:59:40,799
like to really say well that interaction

1578
00:59:44,549 --> 00:59:42,559
was a physical being you know that was

1579
00:59:49,349 --> 00:59:44,559
an extraterrestrial you know

1580
00:59:53,349 --> 00:59:51,349
terrestrial it could have been uh extra

1581
00:59:54,870 --> 00:59:53,359
dimensional it could have been you know

1582
00:59:56,390 --> 00:59:54,880
a human being who's part of the

1583
00:59:58,230 --> 00:59:56,400
breakaway civilization you know like so

1584
01:00:00,789 --> 00:59:58,240
there's so many different possibilities

1585
01:00:02,630 --> 01:00:00,799
no it was a nordic from alpha centauri

1586
01:00:04,950 --> 01:00:02,640
like i don't know it might have been a

1587
01:00:06,630 --> 01:00:04,960
guy from texas who's just been part of

1588
01:00:09,829 --> 01:00:06,640
the breakaway civilization for the last

1589
01:00:14,309 --> 01:00:11,750
yeah then it gets as complicated as you

1590
01:00:16,870 --> 01:00:14,319
probably don't even know if uh other

1591
01:00:17,589 --> 01:00:16,880
species or intelligences can pretend to

1592
01:00:19,349 --> 01:00:17,599
be

1593
01:00:20,630 --> 01:00:19,359
you know another kind

1594
01:00:22,309 --> 01:00:20,640
you know and how do you tell the

1595
01:00:24,230 --> 01:00:22,319
difference there so

1596
01:00:25,990 --> 01:00:24,240
yeah yeah you have that shape-shifting

1597
01:00:27,750 --> 01:00:26,000
element you also and this is the other

1598
01:00:30,630 --> 01:00:27,760
piece that i developed is the notion of

1599
01:00:32,950 --> 01:00:30,640
a mutual enactment hypothesis which is

1600
01:00:35,190 --> 01:00:32,960
my effort to kind of say all of these

1601
01:00:36,630 --> 01:00:35,200
have a piece of the puzzle and that is

1602
01:00:39,190 --> 01:00:36,640
to say

1603
01:00:41,589 --> 01:00:39,200
we are mutually enacting the phenomenon

1604
01:00:43,910 --> 01:00:41,599
this is the participatory aspect we

1605
01:00:45,829 --> 01:00:43,920
bring something to the party they bring

1606
01:00:48,069 --> 01:00:45,839
something to the party and this is you

1607
01:00:50,069 --> 01:00:48,079
know one quick way of illustrating this

1608
01:00:52,470 --> 01:00:50,079
is i like to give this example of

1609
01:00:54,470 --> 01:00:52,480
imagine five people you know sitting on

1610
01:00:57,030 --> 01:00:54,480
the back of a tailgate in a field

1611
01:01:01,190 --> 01:00:57,040
looking at the sky and there's a ufo

1612
01:01:04,789 --> 01:01:01,200
encounter two people don't see it at all

1613
01:01:07,030 --> 01:01:04,799
two people see a cigar-shaped craft and

1614
01:01:09,589 --> 01:01:07,040
the other person sees a kind of a

1615
01:01:12,150 --> 01:01:09,599
classic you know saucer-shaped craft

1616
01:01:13,030 --> 01:01:12,160
right and so you have you know five

1617
01:01:15,190 --> 01:01:13,040
people

1618
01:01:17,430 --> 01:01:15,200
three of whom witnessed something but

1619
01:01:19,430 --> 01:01:17,440
two witnessed one thing and one witness

1620
01:01:21,589 --> 01:01:19,440
something different but they both all

1621
01:01:23,589 --> 01:01:21,599
three agree something happened right

1622
01:01:25,430 --> 01:01:23,599
there was a craft in the sky and we

1623
01:01:27,109 --> 01:01:25,440
would often look at that and say okay

1624
01:01:28,789 --> 01:01:27,119
the fact that they can't agree on what

1625
01:01:29,750 --> 01:01:28,799
happened just shows that nothing

1626
01:01:31,510 --> 01:01:29,760
happened

1627
01:01:33,990 --> 01:01:31,520
my sense is actually that's evidence

1628
01:01:36,150 --> 01:01:34,000
that actually did happen because the

1629
01:01:38,789 --> 01:01:36,160
phenomenon is dynamically interacting

1630
01:01:41,109 --> 01:01:38,799
with us and so we would expect a couple

1631
01:01:42,870 --> 01:01:41,119
people to not see it and then two people

1632
01:01:44,230 --> 01:01:42,880
to see one thing and another to see

1633
01:01:47,589 --> 01:01:44,240
something different because the

1634
01:01:49,750 --> 01:01:47,599
phenomenon taps into our consciousness

1635
01:01:51,670 --> 01:01:49,760
and in any number of ways either through

1636
01:01:54,150 --> 01:01:51,680
our own projection to our cognitive

1637
01:01:55,430 --> 01:01:54,160
filters or through like a valet

1638
01:01:57,990 --> 01:01:55,440
orientation that there's actually a

1639
01:01:59,510 --> 01:01:58,000
manipulation of our consciousness to

1640
01:02:00,870 --> 01:01:59,520
force us to see something in a

1641
01:02:03,109 --> 01:02:00,880
particular way

1642
01:02:05,670 --> 01:02:03,119
all of that's likely happening so

1643
01:02:07,829 --> 01:02:05,680
there's this mutual enactment like

1644
01:02:09,910 --> 01:02:07,839
they're enacting an aspect of the

1645
01:02:12,069 --> 01:02:09,920
experience were enacting an aspect of

1646
01:02:15,270 --> 01:02:12,079
the experience and so this is why it's

1647
01:02:16,870 --> 01:02:15,280
so amorphous why it changes and shifts

1648
01:02:20,150 --> 01:02:16,880
right and this is why you have different

1649
01:02:22,470 --> 01:02:20,160
descriptions of craft over the last 100

1650
01:02:23,829 --> 01:02:22,480
years in part i mean one because i think

1651
01:02:25,990 --> 01:02:23,839
there are a lot of different kinds of

1652
01:02:27,829 --> 01:02:26,000
craft right why not you know there's

1653
01:02:30,309 --> 01:02:27,839
probably a diversity of craft but the

1654
01:02:32,069 --> 01:02:30,319
other thing is that we're enacting

1655
01:02:35,109 --> 01:02:32,079
different visual experiences of the

1656
01:02:37,750 --> 01:02:35,119
phenomena an orb might present itself as

1657
01:02:39,190 --> 01:02:37,760
a one kind of craft to one person and

1658
01:02:41,510 --> 01:02:39,200
might be experienced as a different

1659
01:02:44,309 --> 01:02:41,520
shape craft to another person right and

1660
01:02:47,430 --> 01:02:44,319
so this is the dynamic nature of our

1661
01:02:49,829 --> 01:02:47,440
consciousness in relationship with the

1662
01:02:50,950 --> 01:02:49,839
phenomenon itself

1663
01:02:51,750 --> 01:02:50,960
man

1664
01:02:53,430 --> 01:02:51,760
yeah

1665
01:02:55,029 --> 01:02:53,440
how can you trust yourself how can you

1666
01:02:57,670 --> 01:02:55,039
stay grounded when that's when that's

1667
01:03:01,670 --> 01:02:57,680
the case you know

1668
01:03:04,549 --> 01:03:01,680
it's so difficult and i and i i and sean

1669
01:03:06,950 --> 01:03:04,559
you know the the our lady of fatima case

1670
01:03:09,349 --> 01:03:06,960
is a perfect example from portugal i

1671
01:03:11,109 --> 01:03:09,359
mean there's so much documentation that

1672
01:03:11,829 --> 01:03:11,119
keeps coming up

1673
01:03:12,870 --> 01:03:11,839
yeah

1674
01:03:19,829 --> 01:03:12,880
and

1675
01:03:23,750 --> 01:03:19,839
like franchises

1676
01:03:28,390 --> 01:03:25,990
no seriously my ancestors all right yeah

1677
01:03:31,589 --> 01:03:28,400
my great grandpa and everything

1678
01:03:33,510 --> 01:03:31,599
they were in portugal uh at that time i

1679
01:03:35,349 --> 01:03:33,520
don't know if they saw it or anything

1680
01:03:37,510 --> 01:03:35,359
but yeah so i have a lot of blood there

1681
01:03:39,190 --> 01:03:37,520
that they witnessed that i would guess

1682
01:03:41,270 --> 01:03:39,200
that they would have had to have heard

1683
01:03:43,029 --> 01:03:41,280
about it because of how much it seems

1684
01:03:44,710 --> 01:03:43,039
yeah it really took over the news at

1685
01:03:46,950 --> 01:03:44,720
that point in that area and things like

1686
01:03:48,950 --> 01:03:46,960
that but you know

1687
01:03:50,950 --> 01:03:48,960
uh-huh go ahead please well this is the

1688
01:03:52,870 --> 01:03:50,960
thing about that example it's such a

1689
01:03:55,510 --> 01:03:52,880
good example of what i think of as

1690
01:03:58,069 --> 01:03:55,520
ontological pluralism right i take an

1691
01:03:59,829 --> 01:03:58,079
ontological pluralist orientation to

1692
01:04:01,510 --> 01:03:59,839
reality and so this is a good example to

1693
01:04:04,230 --> 01:04:01,520
illustrate what i mean by that

1694
01:04:06,789 --> 01:04:04,240
many people want to say it was fatima

1695
01:04:10,470 --> 01:04:06,799
right it was our lady it was you know it

1696
01:04:12,549 --> 01:04:10,480
was a christian you know in and then

1697
01:04:14,549 --> 01:04:12,559
other people want to say no it was an et

1698
01:04:16,470 --> 01:04:14,559
it was a ufo experience

1699
01:04:19,430 --> 01:04:16,480
my sense it's

1700
01:04:21,109 --> 01:04:19,440
can it not be both simultaneously like

1701
01:04:23,270 --> 01:04:21,119
you know that this is the mutual

1702
01:04:25,510 --> 01:04:23,280
enactment point right the people who

1703
01:04:28,309 --> 01:04:25,520
relate to it within a christian frame

1704
01:04:31,510 --> 01:04:28,319
enact it as an ontologically real

1705
01:04:34,630 --> 01:04:31,520
phenomenon as our lady fatima and then

1706
01:04:36,309 --> 01:04:34,640
others within a ufological frame enact

1707
01:04:39,190 --> 01:04:36,319
the ufological dimension of it the

1708
01:04:42,309 --> 01:04:39,200
phenomena itself is multivalent it's

1709
01:04:46,270 --> 01:04:42,319
multiple things simultaneously right so

1710
01:04:49,190 --> 01:04:46,280
it has the capacity to support multiple

1711
01:04:51,750 --> 01:04:49,200
contradictory true interpretations of

1712
01:04:54,150 --> 01:04:51,760
the phenomenon we don't have to debate

1713
01:04:56,710 --> 01:04:54,160
was it a uf a predominantly ufo

1714
01:04:58,230 --> 01:04:56,720
experience that was filtered through a

1715
01:05:00,390 --> 01:04:58,240
christian framework

1716
01:05:02,710 --> 01:05:00,400
or was it a christian experience that

1717
01:05:05,670 --> 01:05:02,720
now is being re-visited through a

1718
01:05:07,910 --> 01:05:05,680
ufological frame my sense is it can be

1719
01:05:09,670 --> 01:05:07,920
both right we can debate and look at the

1720
01:05:12,069 --> 01:05:09,680
evidence to see you know does it fit

1721
01:05:14,309 --> 01:05:12,079
both frames and maybe in some cases it

1722
01:05:17,109 --> 01:05:14,319
does fit one frame more than another but

1723
01:05:19,589 --> 01:05:17,119
my sense of the phenomenon is it's very

1724
01:05:22,630 --> 01:05:19,599
capable of providing substantial

1725
01:05:24,710 --> 01:05:22,640
evidence that it's both even if that

1726
01:05:25,750 --> 01:05:24,720
means the evidence is contradictory

1727
01:05:27,750 --> 01:05:25,760
right so

1728
01:05:30,470 --> 01:05:27,760
why can it not be contradictory right we

1729
01:05:32,870 --> 01:05:30,480
live in a very dynamic world um a very

1730
01:05:35,190 --> 01:05:32,880
mysterious reality and it's just our

1731
01:05:37,109 --> 01:05:35,200
kind of narrow scientific views that

1732
01:05:39,029 --> 01:05:37,119
seizes as contradictory

1733
01:05:41,430 --> 01:05:39,039
the irony of it is that seems so much

1734
01:05:42,230 --> 01:05:41,440
easier yeah exactly

1735
01:05:44,950 --> 01:05:42,240
right

1736
01:05:47,190 --> 01:05:44,960
and it makes the chant bigger

1737
01:05:49,670 --> 01:05:47,200
absolutely i'm reminded of that old

1738
01:05:52,069 --> 01:05:49,680
terence mckenna quote where it says like

1739
01:05:55,270 --> 01:05:52,079
we're dealing with a phenomena that is

1740
01:05:58,549 --> 01:05:55,280
disguising itself as an alien invasion

1741
01:06:00,950 --> 01:05:58,559
so as not to alarm us yeah right

1742
01:06:03,029 --> 01:06:00,960
with this classic terrence mckenna humor

1743
01:06:04,789 --> 01:06:03,039
but you know like that's i mean i i

1744
01:06:07,349 --> 01:06:04,799
think i screwed that up a little bit but

1745
01:06:08,549 --> 01:06:07,359
you know that's the paraphrase and i i

1746
01:06:10,549 --> 01:06:08,559
think that there's really something to

1747
01:06:12,390 --> 01:06:10,559
that and it makes sense because like

1748
01:06:13,349 --> 01:06:12,400
when we look at the cases and things

1749
01:06:15,510 --> 01:06:13,359
like this

1750
01:06:18,069 --> 01:06:15,520
you know even if i'm i'm reducing it

1751
01:06:20,309 --> 01:06:18,079
down just for for the case of of trying

1752
01:06:21,589 --> 01:06:20,319
to to explain things a little bit which

1753
01:06:24,870 --> 01:06:21,599
i can't do because i don't know what the

1754
01:06:27,589 --> 01:06:24,880
hell is going on but you know we we look

1755
01:06:29,910 --> 01:06:27,599
at this situation and we're we are often

1756
01:06:33,190 --> 01:06:29,920
dealing with um some aspect of a

1757
01:06:34,150 --> 01:06:33,200
phenomenon that can somehow has

1758
01:06:38,950 --> 01:06:34,160
has

1759
01:06:40,789 --> 01:06:38,960
right we hear all about all the time

1760
01:06:41,589 --> 01:06:40,799
about telepathy we hear all the time

1761
01:06:43,270 --> 01:06:41,599
about

1762
01:06:45,510 --> 01:06:43,280
like synchronicities and things like

1763
01:06:48,230 --> 01:06:45,520
that that seem to allude to the idea

1764
01:06:51,029 --> 01:06:48,240
that that there's some access to not

1765
01:06:55,270 --> 01:06:51,039
just our our mind but like our frames of

1766
01:06:57,829 --> 01:06:55,280
reference right like why why like why if

1767
01:06:59,270 --> 01:06:57,839
you're in germany a gray can speak

1768
01:07:01,589 --> 01:06:59,280
german right

1769
01:07:04,789 --> 01:07:01,599
and if you're in japan a gray could

1770
01:07:07,589 --> 01:07:04,799
speak japanese and not only that or you

1771
01:07:09,190 --> 01:07:07,599
know a mantad or whatever or fey or

1772
01:07:11,510 --> 01:07:09,200
whatever you're dealing with at that

1773
01:07:13,589 --> 01:07:11,520
particular moment and not only that but

1774
01:07:16,150 --> 01:07:13,599
there's been so many documentation

1775
01:07:19,349 --> 01:07:16,160
documented cases where those

1776
01:07:22,230 --> 01:07:19,359
those beings are seem to be using your

1777
01:07:24,069 --> 01:07:22,240
lingual base your language base so if

1778
01:07:27,190 --> 01:07:24,079
you're a chemical engineer it might make

1779
01:07:29,829 --> 01:07:27,200
an analogy using the terms of chemical

1780
01:07:32,069 --> 01:07:29,839
you know engineering right or if you're

1781
01:07:34,950 --> 01:07:32,079
a painter they might you know like for

1782
01:07:37,270 --> 01:07:34,960
example jane roberts who was the the

1783
01:07:40,069 --> 01:07:37,280
seth channeler back in the 70s very

1784
01:07:41,270 --> 01:07:40,079
famous like channeling case like that

1785
01:07:43,190 --> 01:07:41,280
being

1786
01:07:44,870 --> 01:07:43,200
that if you're you know using

1787
01:07:46,710 --> 01:07:44,880
ontological flooding we're just going to

1788
01:07:49,270 --> 01:07:46,720
accept that it exists for the case of an

1789
01:07:51,670 --> 01:07:49,280
example like that being used a lot of

1790
01:07:52,549 --> 01:07:51,680
like really advanced like painting and

1791
01:07:53,349 --> 01:07:52,559
art

1792
01:07:54,470 --> 01:07:53,359
um

1793
01:07:57,510 --> 01:07:54,480
uh

1794
01:07:59,990 --> 01:07:57,520
examples and though the person

1795
01:08:01,990 --> 01:08:00,000
channeling it was not

1796
01:08:04,230 --> 01:08:02,000
an artist herself

1797
01:08:06,230 --> 01:08:04,240
the person that that channel was

1798
01:08:09,029 --> 01:08:06,240
speaking to was

1799
01:08:11,829 --> 01:08:09,039
right wow and so jane roberts was was

1800
01:08:13,750 --> 01:08:11,839
not an artist but the person taking down

1801
01:08:16,070 --> 01:08:13,760
everything was this name robert butts

1802
01:08:18,630 --> 01:08:16,080
and he was a painter right and so the

1803
01:08:20,709 --> 01:08:18,640
channeled being would use like super

1804
01:08:23,110 --> 01:08:20,719
advanced art analogies

1805
01:08:24,390 --> 01:08:23,120
in these cases right and it seemed to

1806
01:08:26,709 --> 01:08:24,400
kind of point at something where it's

1807
01:08:30,070 --> 01:08:26,719
like well jane didn't know that but like

1808
01:08:31,990 --> 01:08:30,080
that being did right and it seemed to be

1809
01:08:33,349 --> 01:08:32,000
accessing something there i remember

1810
01:08:35,269 --> 01:08:33,359
stewart who

1811
01:08:37,269 --> 01:08:35,279
who you know mutual friend

1812
01:08:38,950 --> 01:08:37,279
we all know at this point stewart davis

1813
01:08:40,950 --> 01:08:38,960
he said that like during one of his kind

1814
01:08:43,030 --> 01:08:40,960
of contact events

1815
01:08:45,110 --> 01:08:43,040
that he used to have to take hearing

1816
01:08:48,149 --> 01:08:45,120
tests when he was a kid right right and

1817
01:08:50,309 --> 01:08:48,159
yeah and and he said that and of course

1818
01:08:52,390 --> 01:08:50,319
there's a lot of you know john mack but

1819
01:08:54,149 --> 01:08:52,400
hopkins a lot of of

1820
01:08:55,990 --> 01:08:54,159
of the people that have documented this

1821
01:08:57,990 --> 01:08:56,000
stuff whitley strieber all a manner of

1822
01:08:59,590 --> 01:08:58,000
people have talked about a light or a

1823
01:09:01,349 --> 01:08:59,600
hum kind of like what you were talking

1824
01:09:03,110 --> 01:09:01,359
about earlier sean with light energy

1825
01:09:04,870 --> 01:09:03,120
intelligence and participatory yeah

1826
01:09:07,430 --> 01:09:04,880
exactly it's all right there

1827
01:09:09,430 --> 01:09:07,440
it's all right there and so the idea and

1828
01:09:12,149 --> 01:09:09,440
so stuart got bugged out because he had

1829
01:09:14,550 --> 01:09:12,159
this contact event and he didn't just

1830
01:09:16,070 --> 01:09:14,560
hear the tone he didn't just hear a a

1831
01:09:18,149 --> 01:09:16,080
pitch which is very common in a

1832
01:09:19,749 --> 01:09:18,159
situation like that he heard the

1833
01:09:21,910 --> 01:09:19,759
specific and of course stewart's a

1834
01:09:25,590 --> 01:09:21,920
musician so he would know he heard the

1835
01:09:28,709 --> 01:09:25,600
specific pitches from his hearing test

1836
01:09:29,990 --> 01:09:28,719
from like decades ago wow and and that

1837
01:09:31,110 --> 01:09:30,000
and he was

1838
01:09:32,149 --> 01:09:31,120
and that's one of those things where

1839
01:09:33,510 --> 01:09:32,159
it's just like

1840
01:09:35,590 --> 01:09:33,520
you know

1841
01:09:37,749 --> 01:09:35,600
it's it's like people complain all the

1842
01:09:40,070 --> 01:09:37,759
time like they don't ring the doorbell

1843
01:09:42,149 --> 01:09:40,080
right they don't knock on the door

1844
01:09:44,390 --> 01:09:42,159
well that kind of sounds to me like

1845
01:09:45,189 --> 01:09:44,400
they're ringing the doorbell yeah right

1846
01:09:46,630 --> 01:09:45,199
yeah

1847
01:09:48,950 --> 01:09:46,640
if they're bringing up a reference

1848
01:09:49,749 --> 01:09:48,960
that's that's that deep of a cut into

1849
01:09:52,070 --> 01:09:49,759
you

1850
01:09:53,749 --> 01:09:52,080
that's like something beyond a doorbell

1851
01:09:55,270 --> 01:09:53,759
in a weird way

1852
01:09:57,350 --> 01:09:55,280
and that's so beautifully the mutual

1853
01:10:00,149 --> 01:09:57,360
enactment hypothesis right

1854
01:10:02,229 --> 01:10:00,159
like stuart's bringing that to the table

1855
01:10:04,470 --> 01:10:02,239
they're tapping into that and amplifying

1856
01:10:05,750 --> 01:10:04,480
that and bringing that to the encounter

1857
01:10:08,390 --> 01:10:05,760
and it's you know because on the one

1858
01:10:10,310 --> 01:10:08,400
hand it's a way that they're confirming

1859
01:10:12,149 --> 01:10:10,320
we're really here

1860
01:10:13,910 --> 01:10:12,159
and it's a way you know so it's like

1861
01:10:15,270 --> 01:10:13,920
because it's a deep cut and like but

1862
01:10:16,870 --> 01:10:15,280
some people would look at that say oh

1863
01:10:18,790 --> 01:10:16,880
well clearly

1864
01:10:20,310 --> 01:10:18,800
he's just projecting that because that

1865
01:10:21,669 --> 01:10:20,320
was an experience he had when he was

1866
01:10:23,830 --> 01:10:21,679
younger and now he's just gotten

1867
01:10:26,070 --> 01:10:23,840
reactivated and he's he's laying that on

1868
01:10:28,070 --> 01:10:26,080
the experience right they would use that

1869
01:10:30,630 --> 01:10:28,080
to kind of dismiss it as you know a

1870
01:10:32,630 --> 01:10:30,640
cognitive distortion right but i think

1871
01:10:35,189 --> 01:10:32,640
you're accurate i think it's it's more

1872
01:10:36,630 --> 01:10:35,199
the actually the opposite right it's

1873
01:10:38,390 --> 01:10:36,640
evidence for

1874
01:10:40,630 --> 01:10:38,400
the interaction opposed to evidence

1875
01:10:43,669 --> 01:10:40,640
against the interaction because of that

1876
01:10:45,430 --> 01:10:43,679
mutual enactment um dimension and that

1877
01:10:48,229 --> 01:10:45,440
they're they're using that as a deep

1878
01:10:50,390 --> 01:10:48,239
signal to to because it shakes people to

1879
01:10:52,149 --> 01:10:50,400
the core when that happens you know and

1880
01:10:54,950 --> 01:10:52,159
stuart when he talks about that moment

1881
01:10:57,189 --> 01:10:54,960
he just was just like it's like

1882
01:10:59,110 --> 01:10:57,199
it was like they had his number right

1883
01:11:01,990 --> 01:10:59,120
you know and he was just like wow like

1884
01:11:04,950 --> 01:11:02,000
you know he it like became undeniable to

1885
01:11:07,110 --> 01:11:04,960
him at that point

1886
01:11:08,470 --> 01:11:07,120
yeah and and so some of this it's it's

1887
01:11:09,830 --> 01:11:08,480
it's there's it brings up that

1888
01:11:12,470 --> 01:11:09,840
interesting question of like how much of

1889
01:11:15,430 --> 01:11:12,480
this is mistranslation like that they

1890
01:11:16,310 --> 01:11:15,440
that like some other intelligence could

1891
01:11:18,630 --> 01:11:16,320
could

1892
01:11:20,550 --> 01:11:18,640
has removed these these psychological

1893
01:11:22,550 --> 01:11:20,560
barriers that that find some kind of

1894
01:11:23,590 --> 01:11:22,560
like permeability with consciousness in

1895
01:11:25,830 --> 01:11:23,600
general

1896
01:11:28,470 --> 01:11:25,840
somehow and is able to just kind of like

1897
01:11:29,270 --> 01:11:28,480
zero in on some moment and then of

1898
01:11:31,510 --> 01:11:29,280
course

1899
01:11:33,189 --> 01:11:31,520
you know because of our newtonian

1900
01:11:35,350 --> 01:11:33,199
cartesian framework for science and

1901
01:11:37,430 --> 01:11:35,360
stuff like that we say like oh that has

1902
01:11:40,470 --> 01:11:37,440
to be fake that as you're talking about

1903
01:11:43,430 --> 01:11:40,480
like and and in fact like and some

1904
01:11:45,030 --> 01:11:43,440
people it scares them and like how many

1905
01:11:47,270 --> 01:11:45,040
and how many cases is that somebody

1906
01:11:48,790 --> 01:11:47,280
trying to say like no i know you right

1907
01:11:51,030 --> 01:11:48,800
or like you know what i mean that that

1908
01:11:52,470 --> 01:11:51,040
could be something where it's actually

1909
01:11:53,669 --> 01:11:52,480
meant to

1910
01:11:56,229 --> 01:11:53,679
to actually

1911
01:11:57,910 --> 01:11:56,239
you know it's disarms people but it's it

1912
01:12:00,470 --> 01:11:57,920
all becomes it comes down to personal

1913
01:12:02,870 --> 01:12:00,480
cases right

1914
01:12:04,390 --> 01:12:02,880
yeah in my experience it almost seems

1915
01:12:06,310 --> 01:12:04,400
like um

1916
01:12:08,550 --> 01:12:06,320
you know in my

1917
01:12:10,470 --> 01:12:08,560
big my big main encounter or whatever my

1918
01:12:13,030 --> 01:12:10,480
sighting with my dream premonition

1919
01:12:16,070 --> 01:12:13,040
coming true and everything like it it

1920
01:12:18,310 --> 01:12:16,080
would have been seeded years prior with

1921
01:12:19,510 --> 01:12:18,320
them creating

1922
01:12:20,709 --> 01:12:19,520
the dream

1923
01:12:23,110 --> 01:12:20,719
first of all

1924
01:12:26,070 --> 01:12:23,120
that made no sense to me at the time for

1925
01:12:28,630 --> 01:12:26,080
it to then come true years later

1926
01:12:30,630 --> 01:12:28,640
so that when i saw these things it'd be

1927
01:12:32,070 --> 01:12:30,640
like holy crap

1928
01:12:33,669 --> 01:12:32,080
what is this

1929
01:12:36,870 --> 01:12:33,679
you know so

1930
01:12:39,750 --> 01:12:36,880
it that to me is

1931
01:12:41,350 --> 01:12:39,760
so bizarre like creating there they were

1932
01:12:43,510 --> 01:12:41,360
almost creating

1933
01:12:46,709 --> 01:12:43,520
um the experience

1934
01:12:48,870 --> 01:12:46,719
long ago and like it was almost planned

1935
01:12:49,990 --> 01:12:48,880
you know it yeah and hearing you speak

1936
01:12:51,510 --> 01:12:50,000
to that

1937
01:12:53,830 --> 01:12:51,520
and also just what you've been saying

1938
01:12:56,630 --> 01:12:53,840
jay it highlights this other aspect and

1939
01:12:59,350 --> 01:12:56,640
maybe this is a fifth element to my four

1940
01:13:01,590 --> 01:12:59,360
it's like there's a quality of intimacy

1941
01:13:03,669 --> 01:13:01,600
that's present right like there's you

1942
01:13:06,630 --> 01:13:03,679
know yeah stuart had that experience of

1943
01:13:08,390 --> 01:13:06,640
intimacy when those um pitches that were

1944
01:13:10,149 --> 01:13:08,400
connected to his earlier hearing tests

1945
01:13:11,990 --> 01:13:10,159
were happening and and sean you're

1946
01:13:14,630 --> 01:13:12,000
talking about a quality of intimacy of

1947
01:13:16,310 --> 01:13:14,640
like how could this line up like this

1948
01:13:18,149 --> 01:13:16,320
dream from before and this experience

1949
01:13:20,790 --> 01:13:18,159
now and it's just like and there's just

1950
01:13:21,830 --> 01:13:20,800
a sense of like deep intimacy um that's

1951
01:13:23,830 --> 01:13:21,840
occurring

1952
01:13:26,070 --> 01:13:23,840
um and a lot of you know experiencers

1953
01:13:28,630 --> 01:13:26,080
describe that in some sense like there's

1954
01:13:31,110 --> 01:13:28,640
a quality of intimacy that is really

1955
01:13:33,750 --> 01:13:31,120
striking

1956
01:13:36,229 --> 01:13:33,760
yeah that's that that was um

1957
01:13:38,470 --> 01:13:36,239
it's almost as if um

1958
01:13:40,229 --> 01:13:38,480
the phenomenon or whatever knows you

1959
01:13:41,750 --> 01:13:40,239
know the best way to communicate with

1960
01:13:44,149 --> 01:13:41,760
you and get through to you at being a

1961
01:13:45,110 --> 01:13:44,159
musician and more of a sensitive person

1962
01:13:48,229 --> 01:13:45,120
um

1963
01:13:50,470 --> 01:13:48,239
you know that was the ticket

1964
01:13:52,390 --> 01:13:50,480
you know the skywalker ranch material

1965
01:13:54,790 --> 01:13:52,400
you know they talk about the pre

1966
01:13:55,990 --> 01:13:54,800
um you know the the pre-cognitive

1967
01:13:57,669 --> 01:13:56,000
sentience

1968
01:13:59,910 --> 01:13:57,679
right which they're basically saying you

1969
01:14:01,189 --> 01:13:59,920
know it's more of a benevolent version

1970
01:14:03,669 --> 01:14:01,199
but they're basically saying there was

1971
01:14:05,510 --> 01:14:03,679
an intimacy it was always one step ahead

1972
01:14:07,910 --> 01:14:05,520
of us it always knew what we were going

1973
01:14:09,430 --> 01:14:07,920
to do before we did it before we knew we

1974
01:14:11,510 --> 01:14:09,440
were going to do it right so they're

1975
01:14:13,430 --> 01:14:11,520
again describing this quality of

1976
01:14:15,270 --> 01:14:13,440
intimacy like there's like there's some

1977
01:14:17,270 --> 01:14:15,280
kind of and i think that again is the

1978
01:14:18,870 --> 01:14:17,280
mutual enactment because it's like

1979
01:14:20,790 --> 01:14:18,880
both

1980
01:14:23,750 --> 01:14:20,800
you know kind of aspects you and the

1981
01:14:25,990 --> 01:14:23,760
phenomenon are kind of co-emerging out

1982
01:14:27,669 --> 01:14:26,000
of the matrix of being

1983
01:14:29,430 --> 01:14:27,679
and and as and there's so there's a

1984
01:14:31,510 --> 01:14:29,440
sense of separation

1985
01:14:33,590 --> 01:14:31,520
but there's a quality of intimacy of

1986
01:14:35,350 --> 01:14:33,600
resonance and connection right with the

1987
01:14:37,590 --> 01:14:35,360
dream and the experience it's like so

1988
01:14:39,510 --> 01:14:37,600
there's kind of this co-arising quality

1989
01:14:42,870 --> 01:14:39,520
to these experiences

1990
01:14:44,950 --> 01:14:42,880
that that it's like it's you and and

1991
01:14:47,350 --> 01:14:44,960
you're it and you're co-arising and

1992
01:14:49,110 --> 01:14:47,360
there's this intimacy and yeah i mean i

1993
01:14:51,350 --> 01:14:49,120
think that's part of what makes it so

1994
01:14:52,390 --> 01:14:51,360
intriguing you know these experiences

1995
01:14:54,709 --> 01:14:52,400
that so many

1996
01:14:55,669 --> 01:14:54,719
yeah i mean it changed my life forever

1997
01:14:57,830 --> 01:14:55,679
definitely

1998
01:14:59,110 --> 01:14:57,840
there's no way i would be here doing

1999
01:15:00,870 --> 01:14:59,120
this talking to you right now if it

2000
01:15:03,350 --> 01:15:00,880
wasn't for that so

2001
01:15:05,110 --> 01:15:03,360
and this is the other thing and so

2002
01:15:06,790 --> 01:15:05,120
and because stewart also talks about

2003
01:15:07,830 --> 01:15:06,800
this he says he had the 60-second

2004
01:15:10,310 --> 01:15:07,840
encounter

2005
01:15:11,830 --> 01:15:10,320
right where this on new year's eve this

2006
01:15:13,110 --> 01:15:11,840
manchester showed up when he was in a

2007
01:15:15,270 --> 01:15:13,120
fever state

2008
01:15:18,470 --> 01:15:15,280
basically had like kind of a download

2009
01:15:21,270 --> 01:15:18,480
you know zap into his third eye and was

2010
01:15:24,550 --> 01:15:21,280
60 seconds it's over he spent the next

2011
01:15:27,030 --> 01:15:24,560
10 years all the artwork and music and

2012
01:15:30,390 --> 01:15:27,040
you know films that he did all of it

2013
01:15:31,669 --> 01:15:30,400
came out of that 60-second encounter

2014
01:15:33,189 --> 01:15:31,679
right so

2015
01:15:35,830 --> 01:15:33,199
people describe

2016
01:15:38,709 --> 01:15:35,840
this transformative the transformative

2017
01:15:41,590 --> 01:15:38,719
impact of these encounters and in

2018
01:15:44,149 --> 01:15:41,600
qualitative research that's actually a

2019
01:15:46,950 --> 01:15:44,159
indicator of validity that can be viewed

2020
01:15:49,830 --> 01:15:46,960
and understood as an element that

2021
01:15:52,149 --> 01:15:49,840
validates the reality of the phenomenon

2022
01:15:55,110 --> 01:15:52,159
when it has that kind of deep

2023
01:15:57,910 --> 01:15:55,120
transformative impact on a person that

2024
01:15:59,830 --> 01:15:57,920
actually points to something very real

2025
01:16:01,910 --> 01:15:59,840
and in qualitative research you can use

2026
01:16:04,229 --> 01:16:01,920
that as a way of validating the reality

2027
01:16:05,270 --> 01:16:04,239
of a phenomenon

2028
01:16:08,070 --> 01:16:05,280
wow

2029
01:16:09,510 --> 01:16:08,080
yeah that's amazing i think we're

2030
01:16:12,790 --> 01:16:09,520
we're a little past the hour i didn't

2031
01:16:13,590 --> 01:16:12,800
know how long you could stay um

2032
01:16:15,110 --> 01:16:13,600
but

2033
01:16:18,630 --> 01:16:15,120
i am starving

2034
01:16:21,750 --> 01:16:20,310
okay yo do you want to call it soon do

2035
01:16:23,270 --> 01:16:21,760
you want to do you want to do one more

2036
01:16:24,709 --> 01:16:23,280
question or how do you want to do this

2037
01:16:26,390 --> 01:16:24,719
how are you sean

2038
01:16:27,830 --> 01:16:26,400
how are either of the sean's doing

2039
01:16:29,110 --> 01:16:27,840
you're hungry okay but i don't know how

2040
01:16:31,270 --> 01:16:29,120
he's doing

2041
01:16:34,390 --> 01:16:31,280
how are you doing dr sean i'm good to go

2042
01:16:35,430 --> 01:16:34,400
so i'm happy to engage but you know also

2043
01:16:39,270 --> 01:16:35,440
you know

2044
01:16:40,390 --> 01:16:39,280
just let me know

2045
01:16:41,830 --> 01:16:40,400
yeah well

2046
01:16:43,669 --> 01:16:41,840
why don't you guys keep going i'm gonna

2047
01:16:44,630 --> 01:16:43,679
bow out for one second i'll be right

2048
01:16:46,950 --> 01:16:44,640
back

2049
01:16:48,870 --> 01:16:46,960
oh okay great cool does that sound okay

2050
01:16:50,630 --> 01:16:48,880
all right yeah that sounds great

2051
01:16:53,270 --> 01:16:50,640
all right here we go

2052
01:16:55,350 --> 01:16:53,280
all right um now you can ask me the real

2053
01:16:57,990 --> 01:16:55,360
questions now i can ask you the real

2054
01:16:59,830 --> 01:16:58,000
questions no i think that that and like

2055
01:17:01,030 --> 01:16:59,840
i you know he has his earbuds in so i'm

2056
01:17:03,110 --> 01:17:01,040
sure that he could probably hear this

2057
01:17:05,910 --> 01:17:03,120
right now but which is great but you

2058
01:17:08,070 --> 01:17:05,920
know that idea of intimacy and the

2059
01:17:10,070 --> 01:17:08,080
problem of translation is like a really

2060
01:17:12,229 --> 01:17:10,080
fascinating one right because it gets

2061
01:17:14,470 --> 01:17:12,239
back to like really

2062
01:17:16,870 --> 01:17:14,480
deeply resonant and relevant

2063
01:17:19,110 --> 01:17:16,880
relationship issues right because you

2064
01:17:21,030 --> 01:17:19,120
know what happens what what are what do

2065
01:17:23,669 --> 01:17:21,040
we watch movies about we watch movies

2066
01:17:25,830 --> 01:17:23,679
about husbands and wives that or or

2067
01:17:28,709 --> 01:17:25,840
burgeoning relationships where there is

2068
01:17:31,110 --> 01:17:28,719
intimacy and then a mistranslation of

2069
01:17:33,189 --> 01:17:31,120
where somebody misconstrued or

2070
01:17:36,070 --> 01:17:33,199
like that's that's kind of like that's

2071
01:17:38,470 --> 01:17:36,080
like maybe more than 50 of the fiction

2072
01:17:40,149 --> 01:17:38,480
that exists in the world is is that

2073
01:17:43,430 --> 01:17:40,159
situation right

2074
01:17:45,910 --> 01:17:43,440
um and it and so the idea that that

2075
01:17:48,950 --> 01:17:45,920
could be writ large into the these kinds

2076
01:17:51,189 --> 01:17:48,960
of situations is deeply beautiful and

2077
01:17:54,470 --> 01:17:51,199
and also kind of the elephant in the

2078
01:17:56,790 --> 01:17:54,480
room here is that that we don't have

2079
01:17:58,790 --> 01:17:56,800
enough of those kinds of stories within

2080
01:18:01,430 --> 01:17:58,800
the fictions that we read right it

2081
01:18:03,350 --> 01:18:01,440
reminds me of whitley strieber um who a

2082
01:18:04,229 --> 01:18:03,360
lot of people have kind of a you know

2083
01:18:05,910 --> 01:18:04,239
there's

2084
01:18:08,390 --> 01:18:05,920
he's kind of a thorny guy to contend

2085
01:18:10,709 --> 01:18:08,400
with sometimes because he he deals with

2086
01:18:13,110 --> 01:18:10,719
a lot of shadow aspects of personality

2087
01:18:16,070 --> 01:18:13,120
and things like that but one of one of

2088
01:18:18,070 --> 01:18:16,080
one great quote that he had again i'll

2089
01:18:20,630 --> 01:18:18,080
have to like massively

2090
01:18:22,790 --> 01:18:20,640
um dumb it down in paraphrasing but he

2091
01:18:24,470 --> 01:18:22,800
said that you know if we're going to

2092
01:18:27,110 --> 01:18:24,480
understand this

2093
01:18:29,990 --> 01:18:27,120
phenomenon better we need to create

2094
01:18:32,070 --> 01:18:30,000
better science fictions yeah right

2095
01:18:34,070 --> 01:18:32,080
yeah no and i think that's one way of

2096
01:18:35,830 --> 01:18:34,080
saying we need we need better stories we

2097
01:18:38,870 --> 01:18:35,840
also we need better frameworks we need

2098
01:18:41,350 --> 01:18:38,880
better distinctions right and so a good

2099
01:18:44,390 --> 01:18:41,360
better science fiction kind of gives us

2100
01:18:47,110 --> 01:18:44,400
a more richly detailed set of

2101
01:18:49,830 --> 01:18:47,120
distinctions that then allows us to make

2102
01:18:51,750 --> 01:18:49,840
sense of the phenomenon at a finer level

2103
01:18:53,350 --> 01:18:51,760
of resolution right you know so i think

2104
01:18:55,189 --> 01:18:53,360
he's kind of pointing to that same

2105
01:18:56,790 --> 01:18:55,199
notion that we're talking about before

2106
01:18:57,750 --> 01:18:56,800
and i love what you're highlighting

2107
01:18:59,030 --> 01:18:57,760
about

2108
01:19:02,950 --> 01:18:59,040
you know the

2109
01:19:04,870 --> 01:19:02,960
in our you know

2110
01:19:07,669 --> 01:19:04,880
life you know are filled with all kinds

2111
01:19:11,270 --> 01:19:07,679
of you know false memories and cognitive

2112
01:19:13,189 --> 01:19:11,280
distortions and projections and and

2113
01:19:14,870 --> 01:19:13,199
and given that's the case

2114
01:19:17,350 --> 01:19:14,880
i'm still married right like it doesn't

2115
01:19:18,709 --> 01:19:17,360
mean my marriage is not happening right

2116
01:19:21,590 --> 01:19:18,719
so you know

2117
01:19:23,189 --> 01:19:21,600
so often it's like skeptics you know

2118
01:19:25,669 --> 01:19:23,199
point to like oh well there's you know

2119
01:19:27,270 --> 01:19:25,679
false memory or sleep paralysis or you

2120
01:19:29,110 --> 01:19:27,280
know there's cognitive distortions and

2121
01:19:31,590 --> 01:19:29,120
yeah that's all true like and we have to

2122
01:19:34,149 --> 01:19:31,600
factor that in to how we make sense of

2123
01:19:35,830 --> 01:19:34,159
experiencers reports and their testimony

2124
01:19:37,990 --> 01:19:35,840
right and so there's this this weird

2125
01:19:39,830 --> 01:19:38,000
binary where it's like either the

2126
01:19:42,550 --> 01:19:39,840
witnesses are just telling the truth

2127
01:19:44,550 --> 01:19:42,560
with like a photographic memory or it's

2128
01:19:47,189 --> 01:19:44,560
just all filled with all kinds of

2129
01:19:49,669 --> 01:19:47,199
distortions that we know the human mind

2130
01:19:52,870 --> 01:19:49,679
is prone to make like and so this is a

2131
01:19:53,750 --> 01:19:52,880
really weird binary a really bizarre

2132
01:19:55,830 --> 01:19:53,760
kind of

2133
01:19:57,510 --> 01:19:55,840
you know way of thinking about it so i'm

2134
01:19:59,750 --> 01:19:57,520
very interested in like how do we

2135
01:20:02,709 --> 01:19:59,760
embrace all the ways that humans

2136
01:20:05,189 --> 01:20:02,719
cognitively distort their experience and

2137
01:20:08,310 --> 01:20:05,199
still end up with the validity of the

2138
01:20:10,629 --> 01:20:08,320
experiencer experience at its core right

2139
01:20:13,110 --> 01:20:10,639
you know and so that it's no longer used

2140
01:20:14,870 --> 01:20:13,120
to dismiss it all but it's used to

2141
01:20:17,669 --> 01:20:14,880
deepen our inquiry as to what's

2142
01:20:19,669 --> 01:20:17,679
happening how do we make sense of it

2143
01:20:21,510 --> 01:20:19,679
in what ways am i distorting my

2144
01:20:23,910 --> 01:20:21,520
experience and in what ways is the

2145
01:20:26,070 --> 01:20:23,920
experience still bleeding through

2146
01:20:28,790 --> 01:20:26,080
my particular frameworks and making

2147
01:20:31,510 --> 01:20:28,800
contact with me you know intimacy

2148
01:20:34,229 --> 01:20:31,520
transformative power and so forth so

2149
01:20:36,470 --> 01:20:34,239
that we no longer have to be afraid of

2150
01:20:39,030 --> 01:20:36,480
some part of our story actually being an

2151
01:20:40,950 --> 01:20:39,040
example of a false memory right like so

2152
01:20:42,629 --> 01:20:40,960
be it like of course like we're gonna

2153
01:20:45,669 --> 01:20:42,639
fill in the blanks like that's gonna be

2154
01:20:48,709 --> 01:20:45,679
part of our experience you know so why

2155
01:20:51,350 --> 01:20:48,719
not have a more generous view of the

2156
01:20:54,229 --> 01:20:51,360
human mind and the human heart so that

2157
01:20:56,790 --> 01:20:54,239
yes we're gonna add to the experience in

2158
01:20:58,229 --> 01:20:56,800
ways that don't necessarily represent

2159
01:21:00,229 --> 01:20:58,239
the experience

2160
01:21:02,709 --> 01:21:00,239
but but again we come back to the mutual

2161
01:21:05,189 --> 01:21:02,719
enactment hypothesis where it's not like

2162
01:21:07,590 --> 01:21:05,199
there's one pure experience and

2163
01:21:09,750 --> 01:21:07,600
you have to describe it completely

2164
01:21:11,910 --> 01:21:09,760
scientifically and accurate for it to be

2165
01:21:14,390 --> 01:21:11,920
real you know like this is a dynamic

2166
01:21:16,310 --> 01:21:14,400
participation between my consciousness

2167
01:21:19,189 --> 01:21:16,320
and the consciousness of this

2168
01:21:21,910 --> 01:21:19,199
interaction and so there are going to be

2169
01:21:24,229 --> 01:21:21,920
a full spectrum of accuracy and in a

2170
01:21:26,790 --> 01:21:24,239
sense inaccurate element but that

2171
01:21:29,430 --> 01:21:26,800
doesn't undercut the core essence of the

2172
01:21:31,189 --> 01:21:29,440
validity of the experience right and so

2173
01:21:33,430 --> 01:21:31,199
how do we have better distinctions and

2174
01:21:36,629 --> 01:21:33,440
frameworks so that we don't have to

2175
01:21:39,110 --> 01:21:36,639
worry about claims of distortion false

2176
01:21:40,790 --> 01:21:39,120
memory projection but we can

2177
01:21:42,629 --> 01:21:40,800
contextualize it

2178
01:21:45,270 --> 01:21:42,639
within a larger understanding of the

2179
01:21:47,510 --> 01:21:45,280
contact experience and and make that

2180
01:21:49,830 --> 01:21:47,520
part of it so it doesn't have to be used

2181
01:21:51,669 --> 01:21:49,840
to dismiss it well that could be the

2182
01:21:55,110 --> 01:21:51,679
participatory part

2183
01:21:57,510 --> 01:21:55,120
you know um if if maybe it's filling in

2184
01:21:59,669 --> 01:21:57,520
blanks but maybe it's also somewhat of a

2185
01:22:02,709 --> 01:21:59,679
canvas that you're also painting in

2186
01:22:04,310 --> 01:22:02,719
exactly yeah along with the phenomenon

2187
01:22:05,990 --> 01:22:04,320
you know yes maybe those blanks are

2188
01:22:08,229 --> 01:22:06,000
there for a reason so that you can

2189
01:22:09,510 --> 01:22:08,239
create that picture as well

2190
01:22:11,270 --> 01:22:09,520
yeah yeah

2191
01:22:14,149 --> 01:22:11,280
yeah so those are great distinctions

2192
01:22:16,390 --> 01:22:14,159
like in some cases it's a canvas in some

2193
01:22:18,310 --> 01:22:16,400
cases we're co-painting right you know

2194
01:22:21,030 --> 01:22:18,320
sometimes we're filling in the blank

2195
01:22:23,510 --> 01:22:21,040
sometimes we're co-artists you know with

2196
01:22:25,750 --> 01:22:23,520
these intelligences right and so how do

2197
01:22:28,149 --> 01:22:25,760
we make room for both possibilities and

2198
01:22:29,830 --> 01:22:28,159
then how did we learn to discern when

2199
01:22:32,229 --> 01:22:29,840
one experience was me filling in the

2200
01:22:34,950 --> 01:22:32,239
blank and another experience was more of

2201
01:22:37,270 --> 01:22:34,960
a co-creative artistic process with

2202
01:22:39,110 --> 01:22:37,280
these intelligences

2203
01:22:40,470 --> 01:22:39,120
oh yeah that one

2204
01:22:45,110 --> 01:22:40,480
that's up to you that's why you're

2205
01:22:49,430 --> 01:22:47,510
yeah and you know that's the invitation

2206
01:22:51,590 --> 01:22:49,440
in the context of the academic program

2207
01:22:54,310 --> 01:22:51,600
right is to have people who are

2208
01:22:56,629 --> 01:22:54,320
interested you know in these topics in

2209
01:22:58,870 --> 01:22:56,639
this phenomenon who want to bring kind

2210
01:23:00,709 --> 01:22:58,880
of an academic and expanded academic

2211
01:23:02,629 --> 01:23:00,719
viewpoint to really have these

2212
01:23:04,629 --> 01:23:02,639
discussions and start to build out these

2213
01:23:07,350 --> 01:23:04,639
distinctions and frameworks to do

2214
01:23:08,070 --> 01:23:07,360
research into these possibilities so we

2215
01:23:10,310 --> 01:23:08,080
can

2216
01:23:12,629 --> 01:23:10,320
start to elevate the conversation so

2217
01:23:15,270 --> 01:23:12,639
that we can start to have a conversation

2218
01:23:17,430 --> 01:23:15,280
that's actually on par with the

2219
01:23:19,910 --> 01:23:17,440
complexity and nuance of the phenomenon

2220
01:23:22,470 --> 01:23:19,920
because right now we really suck at that

2221
01:23:25,750 --> 01:23:22,480
right it's like a military encounter or

2222
01:23:29,590 --> 01:23:27,590
yeah and so and so we're getting stuff

2223
01:23:31,189 --> 01:23:29,600
that's filtered through like a 23 year

2224
01:23:33,430 --> 01:23:31,199
old kid that

2225
01:23:34,950 --> 01:23:33,440
you know like had to get to that place

2226
01:23:36,470 --> 01:23:34,960
because you know there's so many

2227
01:23:38,229 --> 01:23:36,480
situations in the military where it's

2228
01:23:40,310 --> 01:23:38,239
just like you're already dealing with

2229
01:23:41,350 --> 01:23:40,320
like such a specific framework you're

2230
01:23:42,629 --> 01:23:41,360
dealing with

2231
01:23:44,709 --> 01:23:42,639
with with

2232
01:23:47,510 --> 01:23:44,719
in infrared cameras you're dealing with

2233
01:23:49,750 --> 01:23:47,520
fleur cams you're dealing with with with

2234
01:23:53,189 --> 01:23:49,760
people that are in very specific

2235
01:23:55,510 --> 01:23:53,199
um constructs you know you're dealing um

2236
01:23:57,830 --> 01:23:55,520
i remember richard dolan i always like

2237
01:23:59,750 --> 01:23:57,840
to use that that that

2238
01:24:02,310 --> 01:23:59,760
you know the saying that like if you're

2239
01:24:04,070 --> 01:24:02,320
if you're a hammer all you see is nails

2240
01:24:05,990 --> 01:24:04,080
and so these things turn into very

2241
01:24:08,470 --> 01:24:06,000
contextual situations and i'm reminded

2242
01:24:10,229 --> 01:24:08,480
about how the roman armies used to see

2243
01:24:13,189 --> 01:24:10,239
quote unquote flying saucers and they

2244
01:24:14,629 --> 01:24:13,199
would describe them as shields because

2245
01:24:17,830 --> 01:24:14,639
probably partially because they had a

2246
01:24:20,709 --> 01:24:17,840
shield on their arm right

2247
01:24:22,070 --> 01:24:20,719
and so then and so then later a thousand

2248
01:24:23,990 --> 01:24:22,080
years later or whatever we have to be

2249
01:24:26,070 --> 01:24:24,000
like were the shield saucers were the

2250
01:24:28,390 --> 01:24:26,080
saucers

2251
01:24:30,790 --> 01:24:28,400
probably probably they were

2252
01:24:32,629 --> 01:24:30,800
you know were the cigars tic tacs or the

2253
01:24:34,950 --> 01:24:32,639
tic tac cigars you know what i mean all

2254
01:24:37,030 --> 01:24:34,960
these kinds of ideas right yeah i mean

2255
01:24:39,030 --> 01:24:37,040
one thing one thing you can say

2256
01:24:41,110 --> 01:24:39,040
oh sorry go ahead well just real quick

2257
01:24:44,709 --> 01:24:41,120
when you come to a fork in the ufo road

2258
01:24:46,629 --> 01:24:44,719
you know take it you know

2259
01:24:49,030 --> 01:24:46,639
well it's just like the flying saucers

2260
01:24:51,669 --> 01:24:49,040
like nobody sees flying saucers anymore

2261
01:24:54,629 --> 01:24:51,679
or nobody reports it as a flying saucer

2262
01:24:56,950 --> 01:24:54,639
or a disc really necessarily

2263
01:24:59,669 --> 01:24:56,960
it's almost like that started at one

2264
01:25:02,390 --> 01:24:59,679
spot and people needed that baseline to

2265
01:25:03,669 --> 01:25:02,400
latch on to and they just kept repeating

2266
01:25:06,310 --> 01:25:03,679
the same thing

2267
01:25:08,070 --> 01:25:06,320
and almost to a detriment you know

2268
01:25:10,229 --> 01:25:08,080
because things couldn't branch out into

2269
01:25:12,310 --> 01:25:10,239
what they could actually possibly be

2270
01:25:15,030 --> 01:25:12,320
they always just got thrown in the the

2271
01:25:17,189 --> 01:25:15,040
flag saucer trash bin so to speak yeah

2272
01:25:18,709 --> 01:25:17,199
yeah i i heard a case just the other day

2273
01:25:21,030 --> 01:25:18,719
and it was it was

2274
01:25:23,510 --> 01:25:21,040
it was um it was a recording it was like

2275
01:25:25,189 --> 01:25:23,520
a tape recording of a of a case that

2276
01:25:26,950 --> 01:25:25,199
must have been i don't know 30 years ago

2277
01:25:29,430 --> 01:25:26,960
or so and

2278
01:25:31,430 --> 01:25:29,440
um and i can't remember the the source

2279
01:25:33,270 --> 01:25:31,440
but the the woman

2280
01:25:35,189 --> 01:25:33,280
was asked um

2281
01:25:37,510 --> 01:25:35,199
so you saw a flying saucer and she says

2282
01:25:38,790 --> 01:25:37,520
yeah i saw a flying saucer i saw and

2283
01:25:40,950 --> 01:25:38,800
described where it was in the air or

2284
01:25:42,709 --> 01:25:40,960
whatever and this will end and the

2285
01:25:44,629 --> 01:25:42,719
investigator says describe the flying

2286
01:25:46,629 --> 01:25:44,639
saucer and

2287
01:25:48,709 --> 01:25:46,639
the response is like

2288
01:25:50,120 --> 01:25:48,719
sits there for a second goes well it was

2289
01:25:51,669 --> 01:25:50,130
actually more of a tube shape

2290
01:25:54,709 --> 01:25:51,679
[Laughter]

2291
01:25:57,830 --> 01:25:54,719
right exactly yeah yeah so even these

2292
01:25:59,510 --> 01:25:57,840
short hands tend to kind of like f us up

2293
01:26:02,229 --> 01:25:59,520
a little bit because like how many of

2294
01:26:03,910 --> 01:26:02,239
those flying saucers were actually you

2295
01:26:06,149 --> 01:26:03,920
know kind of like something that looked

2296
01:26:07,430 --> 01:26:06,159
more like a plasma field or a fireball

2297
01:26:09,510 --> 01:26:07,440
or an orb

2298
01:26:11,830 --> 01:26:09,520
or all these other kind of things right

2299
01:26:14,790 --> 01:26:11,840
and so it gets back it gets back to the

2300
01:26:18,950 --> 01:26:14,800
old like we need better term situation

2301
01:26:22,709 --> 01:26:18,960
um well i know i know you uh sean

2302
01:26:26,070 --> 01:26:22,719
sean uh sean as opposed to shawn

2303
01:26:28,709 --> 01:26:26,080
i know that you might be specific

2304
01:26:30,149 --> 01:26:28,719
but what i have i have two kind of like

2305
01:26:32,149 --> 01:26:30,159
final questions i don't know if you do

2306
01:26:33,110 --> 01:26:32,159
sean but one is

2307
01:26:35,270 --> 01:26:33,120
what

2308
01:26:37,910 --> 01:26:35,280
is there any really cool that's

2309
01:26:40,229 --> 01:26:37,920
happening in your new program that that

2310
01:26:42,229 --> 01:26:40,239
that excites you um any new

2311
01:26:44,229 --> 01:26:42,239
conversations or anything that's like

2312
01:26:45,510 --> 01:26:44,239
coming up that that's that's really kind

2313
01:26:46,709 --> 01:26:45,520
of like

2314
01:26:48,229 --> 01:26:46,719
one of those things where it's just like

2315
01:26:49,830 --> 01:26:48,239
you know i created you know it's like

2316
01:26:51,669 --> 01:26:49,840
you create a garden and then you see

2317
01:26:53,590 --> 01:26:51,679
this like new weird plant come up and

2318
01:26:56,470 --> 01:26:53,600
and you're like i didn't anticipate that

2319
01:26:57,910 --> 01:26:56,480
plan is there anything like that

2320
01:26:59,910 --> 01:26:57,920
yeah i'm really right at the beginning

2321
01:27:02,390 --> 01:26:59,920
of the process you know the program

2322
01:27:05,110 --> 01:27:02,400
basically just got approved in september

2323
01:27:06,070 --> 01:27:05,120
um and so you know we're really kind of

2324
01:27:07,910 --> 01:27:06,080
you know

2325
01:27:09,830 --> 01:27:07,920
getting the word out now so that you

2326
01:27:11,830 --> 01:27:09,840
know students who are interested in this

2327
01:27:14,629 --> 01:27:11,840
can come and we can start to

2328
01:27:16,790 --> 01:27:14,639
have that occur in the program i mean

2329
01:27:18,550 --> 01:27:16,800
one thing that i'm doing kind of related

2330
01:27:20,070 --> 01:27:18,560
to it is i really

2331
01:27:21,669 --> 01:27:20,080
am excited about

2332
01:27:24,790 --> 01:27:21,679
starting to do some longitudinal

2333
01:27:27,270 --> 01:27:24,800
research with experiencers who have a

2334
01:27:29,669 --> 01:27:27,280
wide range of experiences not just

2335
01:27:31,430 --> 01:27:29,679
ufological but the full range of

2336
01:27:33,189 --> 01:27:31,440
weirdness and and really kind of

2337
01:27:35,189 --> 01:27:33,199
expanding like you do with the

2338
01:27:37,350 --> 01:27:35,199
experiencer group you know anyone who's

2339
01:27:39,430 --> 01:27:37,360
had an out-of-body experience or you

2340
01:27:41,990 --> 01:27:39,440
know encountered a ghost or had a

2341
01:27:44,550 --> 01:27:42,000
sasquatch experience you know so any

2342
01:27:46,310 --> 01:27:44,560
kind of experience of the anomalous but

2343
01:27:49,110 --> 01:27:46,320
i do want to kind of focus and

2344
01:27:51,510 --> 01:27:49,120
specialize in encounters with

2345
01:27:53,350 --> 01:27:51,520
intelligent beings you know and you know

2346
01:27:55,430 --> 01:27:53,360
because i think it's really fascinating

2347
01:27:57,750 --> 01:27:55,440
like when you look at all the beans that

2348
01:27:59,350 --> 01:27:57,760
are reported in the fairy literature and

2349
01:28:01,669 --> 01:27:59,360
you compare it with all the beans that

2350
01:28:03,750 --> 01:28:01,679
are reported in the ufo literature

2351
01:28:05,110 --> 01:28:03,760
there's a lot of overlap right and and

2352
01:28:08,149 --> 01:28:05,120
so it's very interesting like what's

2353
01:28:10,149 --> 01:28:08,159
going on there um and so i'm wanting to

2354
01:28:11,830 --> 01:28:10,159
do longitudinal research again kind of

2355
01:28:14,070 --> 01:28:11,840
inspired by the free research that

2356
01:28:16,390 --> 01:28:14,080
occurred a few years ago and really you

2357
01:28:17,830 --> 01:28:16,400
know have in-depth you know interviews

2358
01:28:20,629 --> 01:28:17,840
with um

2359
01:28:22,470 --> 01:28:20,639
meta experiencers people who experience

2360
01:28:24,229 --> 01:28:22,480
multiple different kinds of anomalous

2361
01:28:25,990 --> 01:28:24,239
experiences you know so that it can

2362
01:28:29,030 --> 01:28:26,000
really start to get at what i think of

2363
01:28:31,669 --> 01:28:29,040
as what's the underlying ontology of the

2364
01:28:34,310 --> 01:28:31,679
phenomenon right and so by looking at it

2365
01:28:36,550 --> 01:28:34,320
through people who have experience you

2366
01:28:38,629 --> 01:28:36,560
know so i'm less interested in like

2367
01:28:40,390 --> 01:28:38,639
talking to people who just see ghosts or

2368
01:28:42,870 --> 01:28:40,400
people who just see fairies or people

2369
01:28:45,669 --> 01:28:42,880
who just see grays i want to talk to

2370
01:28:48,229 --> 01:28:45,679
people who have experiences with all of

2371
01:28:50,149 --> 01:28:48,239
those kinds of you know beings so that i

2372
01:28:52,149 --> 01:28:50,159
can better understand the similarities

2373
01:28:54,550 --> 01:28:52,159
and differences and how do they describe

2374
01:28:56,310 --> 01:28:54,560
and identify the differences between

2375
01:28:58,550 --> 01:28:56,320
those kinds of beings and those

2376
01:29:00,709 --> 01:28:58,560
encounters so that i can start to

2377
01:29:03,030 --> 01:29:00,719
hopefully get a better sense of like one

2378
01:29:04,870 --> 01:29:03,040
how is it connected and how is it

2379
01:29:06,709 --> 01:29:04,880
different right like i'm really

2380
01:29:08,390 --> 01:29:06,719
interested in that question how is it

2381
01:29:10,470 --> 01:29:08,400
similar and how is it different because

2382
01:29:12,229 --> 01:29:10,480
i think that gets to that point we're

2383
01:29:13,910 --> 01:29:12,239
talking about before i want to have a

2384
01:29:15,990 --> 01:29:13,920
more sophistic conversation with people

2385
01:29:18,550 --> 01:29:16,000
about the phenomenon right and so i

2386
01:29:20,550 --> 01:29:18,560
think this is one entry point into that

2387
01:29:22,629 --> 01:29:20,560
and and we'll see you know students can

2388
01:29:24,550 --> 01:29:22,639
come in and do all kinds of different

2389
01:29:27,110 --> 01:29:24,560
research as their dissertation

2390
01:29:29,030 --> 01:29:27,120
on projects so you know we'll see kind

2391
01:29:30,149 --> 01:29:29,040
of who shows up and what kind of work

2392
01:29:31,750 --> 01:29:30,159
they want to do

2393
01:29:34,070 --> 01:29:31,760
but i really want to support a wide

2394
01:29:35,590 --> 01:29:34,080
range of explorations into anomalous

2395
01:29:36,950 --> 01:29:35,600
phenomena

2396
01:29:38,709 --> 01:29:36,960
i think that's awesome

2397
01:29:40,390 --> 01:29:38,719
that's so beautiful and we should

2398
01:29:42,629 --> 01:29:40,400
probably in the show notes in the in the

2399
01:29:45,910 --> 01:29:42,639
description i would love to throw a link

2400
01:29:47,669 --> 01:29:45,920
of your our wild cosmos paper because we

2401
01:29:49,830 --> 01:29:47,679
could go into like crazy depths about

2402
01:29:56,310 --> 01:29:49,840
that or but if we did that then sean

2403
01:30:00,310 --> 01:29:59,030
yeah it's amazing this i mean this like

2404
01:30:02,070 --> 01:30:00,320
what you're doing in terms of like

2405
01:30:05,030 --> 01:30:02,080
classification systems so that people

2406
01:30:07,270 --> 01:30:05,040
can be can people can start to try to

2407
01:30:10,390 --> 01:30:07,280
have better terms have better language

2408
01:30:12,149 --> 01:30:10,400
have have a clearer shape to things you

2409
01:30:13,750 --> 01:30:12,159
know what i mean so that we can so that

2410
01:30:16,070 --> 01:30:13,760
we can start

2411
01:30:18,950 --> 01:30:16,080
understanding that we're talking about

2412
01:30:20,950 --> 01:30:18,960
something similar the same or different

2413
01:30:23,990 --> 01:30:20,960
and and make those distinctions so that

2414
01:30:26,950 --> 01:30:24,000
we can have like thoughtful

2415
01:30:29,110 --> 01:30:26,960
like deep conversations about this stuff

2416
01:30:31,270 --> 01:30:29,120
without throwing up our hands

2417
01:30:34,390 --> 01:30:31,280
you know exactly it's super super

2418
01:30:36,470 --> 01:30:34,400
important so i i really appreciate that

2419
01:30:39,590 --> 01:30:36,480
uh uh dr shawn

2420
01:30:40,470 --> 01:30:39,600
dr shawn ace bjorn horgans maybe one day

2421
01:30:42,950 --> 01:30:40,480
yeah

2422
01:30:45,270 --> 01:30:42,960
absolutely um do you have do you have a

2423
01:30:46,629 --> 01:30:45,280
last question sean uh mr sean for dr

2424
01:30:48,310 --> 01:30:46,639
sean before

2425
01:30:51,189 --> 01:30:48,320
it's just more of a thank you thank you

2426
01:30:53,270 --> 01:30:51,199
for taking this head on it's it's so um

2427
01:30:55,750 --> 01:30:53,280
you know hearing you explain it there is

2428
01:30:57,990 --> 01:30:55,760
so much going on and there's so many

2429
01:30:59,430 --> 01:30:58,000
different roads to take and to go that a

2430
01:31:01,830 --> 01:30:59,440
lot of people do like chase says just

2431
01:31:03,270 --> 01:31:01,840
put your hands up and walk away but you

2432
01:31:06,390 --> 01:31:03,280
know there's one thing i like to do in

2433
01:31:07,270 --> 01:31:06,400
my life um it's in you know i think this

2434
01:31:09,750 --> 01:31:07,280
is

2435
01:31:10,790 --> 01:31:09,760
one of the many reasons i like you it's

2436
01:31:11,990 --> 01:31:10,800
because

2437
01:31:13,910 --> 01:31:12,000
you know you go towards the

2438
01:31:15,270 --> 01:31:13,920
uncomfortable you go towards the

2439
01:31:17,750 --> 01:31:15,280
complicated

2440
01:31:19,590 --> 01:31:17,760
um because i think you realize that when

2441
01:31:21,910 --> 01:31:19,600
you do that um

2442
01:31:23,910 --> 01:31:21,920
it doesn't wind up being as bad as you

2443
01:31:25,110 --> 01:31:23,920
thought and you grow from it and you

2444
01:31:27,110 --> 01:31:25,120
learn a lot

2445
01:31:28,870 --> 01:31:27,120
um and i appreciate that about you and

2446
01:31:31,510 --> 01:31:28,880
that you're doing it in this subject so

2447
01:31:33,510 --> 01:31:31,520
thank you yeah yeah thanks john i

2448
01:31:36,390 --> 01:31:33,520
appreciate you reflecting that back you

2449
01:31:38,470 --> 01:31:36,400
know and really for me like i'm just so

2450
01:31:40,229 --> 01:31:38,480
passionate about understanding the

2451
01:31:42,149 --> 01:31:40,239
nature of reality

2452
01:31:43,669 --> 01:31:42,159
and i've just realized that to

2453
01:31:46,629 --> 01:31:43,679
understand the nature of reality you

2454
01:31:49,189 --> 01:31:46,639
have to go head first into all of this

2455
01:31:51,510 --> 01:31:49,199
weirdness because there's so much

2456
01:31:54,310 --> 01:31:51,520
insight about the nature of reality by

2457
01:31:57,270 --> 01:31:54,320
going into these uncomfortable bizarre

2458
01:31:59,189 --> 01:31:57,280
complex topics that is just a gold mine

2459
01:32:01,590 --> 01:31:59,199
for you know discovering more about the

2460
01:32:03,510 --> 01:32:01,600
nature of reality and that's my passion

2461
01:32:06,709 --> 01:32:03,520
like i just want to understand reality

2462
01:32:07,910 --> 01:32:06,719
you know it's as simple as that

2463
01:32:13,110 --> 01:32:07,920
well

2464
01:32:15,270 --> 01:32:13,120
conversational topic the next time is

2465
01:32:18,310 --> 01:32:15,280
when we can kind of like further

2466
01:32:21,350 --> 01:32:18,320
uh go into these these topics right and

2467
01:32:23,910 --> 01:32:21,360
um and this is and you know this this

2468
01:32:26,390 --> 01:32:23,920
topic will is not going away anytime

2469
01:32:27,990 --> 01:32:26,400
soon and it can only get deeper and

2470
01:32:30,629 --> 01:32:28,000
broader the more that we have

2471
01:32:32,229 --> 01:32:30,639
conversations like this it's great to

2472
01:32:34,229 --> 01:32:32,239
so great to have you here sean it's

2473
01:32:36,070 --> 01:32:34,239
bjorn hargens especially and you're an

2474
01:32:38,310 --> 01:32:36,080
auspicious lucky rabbit's foot on my

2475
01:32:40,390 --> 01:32:38,320
first day co-hosting uh

2476
01:32:44,149 --> 01:32:40,400
witness citizen with the wonderful sean

2477
01:32:45,270 --> 01:32:44,159
resh so um oh dude it's rash

2478
01:32:46,790 --> 01:32:45,280
rash

2479
01:32:48,470 --> 01:32:46,800
oh you're fine

2480
01:32:49,189 --> 01:32:48,480
i'm just gift sean

2481
01:32:53,030 --> 01:32:49,199
well

2482
01:32:54,470 --> 01:32:53,040
sean s bajorn hargens and sean all right

2483
01:32:58,149 --> 01:32:54,480
you said grace

2484
01:32:59,110 --> 01:32:58,159
it's uh it's great to have you um uh and

2485
01:33:00,709 --> 01:32:59,120
sean

2486
01:33:02,149 --> 01:33:00,719
where can we find you

2487
01:33:04,550 --> 01:33:02,159
dr sean

2488
01:33:09,590 --> 01:33:04,560
uh online where can people find

2489
01:33:14,550 --> 01:33:11,990
yeah so there's a couple places one is

2490
01:33:17,189 --> 01:33:14,560
exostudies.org

2491
01:33:19,669 --> 01:33:17,199
and as i mentioned you know i'm gonna be

2492
01:33:22,790 --> 01:33:19,679
throwing up a new course that i'm gonna

2493
01:33:26,550 --> 01:33:22,800
start in like two or three months and

2494
01:33:29,350 --> 01:33:26,560
the other is the cihs.edu

2495
01:33:33,590 --> 01:33:29,360
website which is the university and then

2496
01:33:34,790 --> 01:33:33,600
my kind of day job is meta integral.com

2497
01:33:37,030 --> 01:33:34,800
and so you can kind of see what i'm

2498
01:33:38,950 --> 01:33:37,040
doing with you know kind of businesses

2499
01:33:42,510 --> 01:33:38,960
and organizations so those are kind of

2500
01:33:45,910 --> 01:33:42,520
my three you know online you know lives

2501
01:33:49,270 --> 01:33:45,920
exostudies.org cihs.edu

2502
01:33:54,070 --> 01:33:51,590
awesome thanks again for doing this i

2503
01:33:55,030 --> 01:33:54,080
really hope that you know if time allows

2504
01:34:04,149 --> 01:33:55,040
you

2505
01:34:06,629 --> 01:34:04,159
all historical or or otherwise let me

2506
01:34:09,030 --> 01:34:06,639
know um with the ufo subject i would

2507
01:34:10,550 --> 01:34:09,040
love to help uh or just you know tell

2508
01:34:11,669 --> 01:34:10,560
you about what i've been through if it

2509
01:34:14,070 --> 01:34:11,679
helps so

2510
01:34:15,189 --> 01:34:14,080
yeah i would love to know

2511
01:34:20,790 --> 01:34:15,199
you know

2512
01:34:24,470 --> 01:34:20,800
a long time so great thanks thanks very

2513
01:34:28,070 --> 01:34:25,800
all right

2514
01:34:30,310 --> 01:34:28,080
[Laughter]

2515
01:34:35,510 --> 01:34:30,320
oh that was great pretty good huh

2516
01:34:38,950 --> 01:34:37,270
hope that that i hope for the audience

2517
01:34:40,870 --> 01:34:38,960
that wasn't too much of a blur there was

2518
01:34:41,590 --> 01:34:40,880
a lot to cover in a short amount of time

2519
01:34:43,830 --> 01:34:41,600
but

2520
01:34:45,270 --> 01:34:43,840
um you know again we can

2521
01:34:47,430 --> 01:34:45,280
captivating the whole time like an

2522
01:34:49,510 --> 01:34:47,440
action film you know there's

2523
01:34:52,470 --> 01:34:49,520
always something except it was for the

2524
01:34:55,030 --> 01:34:52,480
intellect the mind there's always

2525
01:34:56,470 --> 01:34:55,040
something to latch on to so i thought it

2526
01:34:57,990 --> 01:34:56,480
was great and i thought it was a great

2527
01:34:59,990 --> 01:34:58,000
first episode

2528
01:35:00,870 --> 01:35:00,000
but i have learned to at least eat a

2529
01:35:03,350 --> 01:35:00,880
snack

2530
01:35:05,350 --> 01:35:03,360
before the 6 pm show yep i think that

2531
01:35:07,270 --> 01:35:05,360
one thing that we've learned yes

2532
01:35:08,950 --> 01:35:07,280
next next wednesday

2533
01:35:10,470 --> 01:35:08,960
we're gonna meet 20 minutes ahead of

2534
01:35:12,070 --> 01:35:10,480
time and i'm going to ask you if you

2535
01:35:14,149 --> 01:35:12,080
have your snack and i'm going to yeah

2536
01:35:15,430 --> 01:35:14,159
we'll figure it out all right

2537
01:35:16,709 --> 01:35:15,440
we'll do we'll we'll start playing the

2538
01:35:18,550 --> 01:35:16,719
game we'll start we'll show each other

2539
01:35:20,709 --> 01:35:18,560
our snacks and then we'll eat them while

2540
01:35:21,750 --> 01:35:20,719
we prep the show it'll be okay fruit

2541
01:35:23,590 --> 01:35:21,760
snacks

2542
01:35:25,910 --> 01:35:23,600
oh yeah why not all right awesome all

2543
01:35:28,390 --> 01:35:25,920
right all right love you bro cheers love